Issuing a Challenge to Atheists and Unbelievers

by The wanderer 149 Replies latest jw friends

  • daystar
    daystar
    What do You think? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Mass... experiences like that are very possible and are also induceable. I've been a participant in such experiments. I've been a cause of such experiences. Not to the degree of which you speak in your example, but in smallish groups of a few people.

    I'll take a little risk here and give you one example. A while back, three of four years ago perhaps, I visited an old friend, who is an ex-JW and a Christian. We go way, way back and so we speak more or less freely about ourselves. He spoke of difficulties he and his wife has had making ends meet, etc.

    I asked him if I could perform a certain ritual for him that would clear some negative influences and perhaps stabilize his life a bit. The suggestion and intent established, I chose a ritual with appropriate symbolism to his belief system and gave him a basic explanation as to how it would go and what he may experience. I explained that he may see some electric blue light begin to emanate throughout various parts of the ritual. In this case it was a banishing ritual that basically entails invoking YHVH, divine energy, and focusing in the middle of a circle, then directing it to the four corners, within a sphere. I darkened the room and lit some candles. At each of the four corners, I guided this divine "energy" and drew in the air celtic crosses, electric blue. Now, I have only ever "seen" the electric blue in my mind's eye, never in objective reality. But I don't tell him this. I focus intensely upon the details though, making all the lines connect, etc. Within each cross, I energized them by thrusting into the center with my hand while vibrating a certain word in Hebrew. By "vibrating" I mean a sort of chant at a certain frequency which helps to lower the frequency of brain waves.

    After I finished, I closed the ritual with a standard "thou art the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever and ever, amen", also in Hebrew. The actual words used are not important and some might likely find fault with their accuracy. It matters little in this context.

    The results? My friend says he could actually see the electric blue of what I drew in mid-air (remember, I can't). And he told me later that what I did must have helped because soon after, things started to look much better for both of them, financially and otherwise, and he thanked me.

    Suggestion and intent, transference of an altered state of conciousness into another person, a theatrical performance including a number of unconscious symbols relevant to the working and to the persons involved. The intended results achieved.

    A very charismatic person, I'm sure, could achieve similar results upon a much larger group of people, probably with much less effort and trappings, especially if the target audience is already believers and very open to suggestion!

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    If a person says they've had an experience(s) but there is no evidence to back them up and no eyewitnesses, are they delusional or are their experiences real? And I don't mean real to Them. I mean physically real.

    There's also the possibility that they are real, but misinterpreted. I remember seeing a guy walking on a roof of a building across the street from me. His head wasn't attached to his body, it was just floating above it as he walked along. Of course, I don't believe that people can live while their heads aren't attached to their bodies, so I assumed he was wearing a scarf that was the same color as the sky, or something like that. To all appearances, though, his head was detached.

    If you see a table move, and you're inclined to believe in ghosts, then you'll likely attribute it to ghosts. If you don't believe in ghosts, seeing a table move would be a "wow" moment, but not one that would make you (necessarily) believe in ghosts.

    "If it wasn't a ghost, what else could it be?" -- any of the infinite other things I don't know about.

    When I was a kid, I woke up to find my record player's turn-table rocking violently back and forth. It floated on springs and had probably 1/2 inch of play. It was knocking back and forth and clicking loudly. It wasn't turned on. I started looking through the house for what might be causing it. It turned out to be the washing machine. It was out of balance, and whatever vibrations it set loose in the house were being picked up by the record player. When it quit, the rocking quit. If I lived in an apartment and it was the next apartment's washing machine doing it, I'd've never known and would now have a "ghost" story to tell. It would still be "real", but misinterpreted.

    Dave

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    Aha! I thought there was something funny about you! Just kidding,

    Seriously, you have brought up a topic that I know what you're talking about and have wondered about in the past.

    What would have happened if you Didn't tell him what you were doing!?

    AND yes, I think the power of suggestion had a big role in that day so many years ago.

    You should do a test. Get different groups of people together and try doing the blue energy thing with each different group. But split the groups up.

    Tell some of them what you're doing, and don't tell the others and see what happens.

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis
    There's also the possibility that they are real, but misinterpreted.

    I'm not disagreeing with you on this point. In fact it's a great point.

    Ok, let's say .......

    You see in the middle of the day, without the effect of any mind altering substance, not even caffeine (you know the WTS looks down on too much of that too), an ethereal floaty looking native American glide past you and into your kitchen. He turns and looks at you and then is poof gone.

    You rub your eyes, you shake your head, you pinch yourself, you step outside for air.

    You know what you saw.

    How do you go about examining it?

  • daystar
    daystar
    What would have happened if you Didn't tell him what you were doing!?

    Without my guidance and suggestion, there's no telling how he may have interpreted it, really. I wanted him to feel comfortable with it though. If I had drawn pentagrams rather than crosses, for example, if I had performed other parts of the ritual differently, I'm sure I could have evoked quite a different response from him.

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis
    If I had drawn pentagrams rather than crosses, for example, if I had performed other parts of the ritual differently, I'm sure I could have evoked quite a different response from him.

    Oh yeah, that could have caused a stir.

  • AlmostAtheist
    AlmostAtheist
    You see in the middle of the day, without the effect of any mind altering substance, not even caffeine (you know the WTS looks down on too much of that too), an ethereal floaty looking native American glide past you and into your kitchen. He turns and looks at you and then is poof gone

    You rub your eyes, you shake your head, you pinch yourself, you step outside for air.

    You know what you saw.

    How do you go about examining it?

    Hmmmm....

    I guess I'd start retracing the path it took, looking for any evidence that it had been there. Fruitless, probably, but I'd look. I'd try to remember if I'd seen it before in some form -- a movie, an ugly aunt, something like that. I'd talk to it, seeing if I could coax it back.

    His turning toward me and looking at me would make me think he at least had an interest in me. He wasn't just an energy field, he was conscious. (Of course, it could be a coincidence that he looked in my direction. Maybe I only thought he was looking at me.)

    Beyond all that -- and I agree that's pretty weak investigation -- I think I'd report it on JWD and let it drop. I wouldn't deny it to myself, but I'd still know there's plenty I don't know about the universe and this experience only proves it.

    And of course, I'd hope he'd come back someday! ;-)

    What would you do after such an experience?

    Dave

  • BlackSwan of Memphis
    BlackSwan of Memphis

    What would I do?

    I would probably post it here, get flamed, and then drink to see if I could make it come back.

    Really though, I don't think there is anything I could do.

    There really isn't a way to investigate it without resorting to something like heat sensors (which I don't know would really help anyway) and/or Sylvia Browne.

    Maybe slowly inch to the spot where he disapeared and look around to see if there was any sort of projection device. Past that....dunno.

    Scream?

  • Beardo
    Beardo

    Just to clarify what the occult researcher 'Colin Wilson' thought about a spirit world, after two decades research involving case studies, he did not dismiss the whole idea as some kind of collective delusion:

    At this point in the development of civilization the aim is to re-establish that ancient contact with the 'unconscious', the realm of myth. This realm of myth is also the realm of man's 'hidden powers'. What the last two chapters should have made quite clear is that whether we like it or not it is also the realm of'spirits'. Ancient man believed in spirits not because he was a superstitious ignoramus, but because he often saw them. In that sense Voltaire and the French rationalists were completely wrong. Voltaire writes condescendingly in his article on superstition in the Philosophical Dictionary, 'All the Fathers of the Church without exception believed in magic. The Church always condemned magic, but it always believed in it; it didn't excommunicate sorcerers as madmen who were deceived, but as men who really had intercourse with devils.' And this, to Voltaire, was so preposterous that it was not even worth discussing. We can hardly blame Voltaire for taking what after all strikes us as a sensible attitude. The fact remains that we now possess factual evidence that enables us to go beyond Voltaire, and the evidence indicates that the world is a more strange and complex place than we assumed. Jung and Kardec seem to be in agreement on one fundamental point: that the road that will take us forward is also the road that will take us inward.

    (Beyond The Occult - Page 286)

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    LT: Jello! Well who needs pudding! I don’t need proof wrestling in jello is probably fun. I don’t even need to see it with my own eyes! You gonna be wearing that Scott outfit? I need to know for the visual experience; after all I am a few thousand miles away. p asses popcorn

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