Lily wrote:
the majority of mankind will be saved
This seems a departure from your initial statements about Christ dying for everyone. If Christ died for everyone and some were not saved, then it was not a complete propitiatory sacrifice. If however he died for everyone in its scope out of every nation, language, tribe, and people, and died effectually for those that were given him, then there is no discrepancy.
At any rate, I don't have a problem with the Majority of manking being saved as you put it. That would mean over 50%. If God adopts over 50 %... hooray. However, could you explain that view in light of Jesus' words below?
I guess the main problem I have with your slant on things is the idea that there are two salvations running (presently) concurrently. In other words, I don't have a problem with there being a resurrection of the believers and non-believers (past) - all will give an account; nor a problem with the separating of people, possibly some of the same people if not all - (future). What I have a problem with is the idea that we can reject Christ now (presently), die and then grow to perfection later, as the WT puts it. Or, as you put it, I believe that Christ will give many ample opportunity to change their ways. The whole point of the OT is that we can't change our ways. All we can do is build better illlusions of righteousness. There were not more professional doers of righteousness than the Pharisees; they were very, very careful. Yet, Jesus said that our righteousness must surpass theirs. How in the world are we going to do that if not through divine election, sanctification, and eventual glorification?
I personally believe that the highest plateau that humans can reach in our state of captivity to sin is to imagine ourselves better than our neighbors, which is just another sin, not to mention ignorant.
In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
As it is written:"There is none righteous, no, not one;
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES
A secondary problem that I have is the tone you use when describing the character of both God and us in our current state:
It is not good news if 99.9% of mankind will die as sinners when God knows Satan is misleading them. And they are dealing with depression, anxiety, imperfection and a host of other problems. And we certainly cannot say "God is love" but yet only chooses to save a few people in relation to the whole world. The few chosen are to be heirs with Christ. They do not represent all saved. When all is done, the majority of mankind will be saved. Now that is good news! Lilly | |
First, only the WT uses the 99.9% language. The majority of mainstream Christian schlolars do not. Second, Satan is misleading a captive race, pretty easy to do. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. His successful deceptions are mostly a result of our captivity, not the cause of it. Next, the fact that we experience depression, anxiety, imperfection and a host of other problems on our part, does not constitute an emergency of responsibility on God's part. We are not his children unless we are "born again". We are Adam's children and there is NOTHING we ourselves can do to change that. Once we are born again, THEN God takes responsibility for his family like any mother or father would. And, let me tell you brother, with God Himself as your Father there is nothing that he will not give you, including much teaching and discipline. We cannot fully appreciate being chosen without understanding the utter hopeless condition we are in by being born into the wrong family. It is our problem, not His. For example, what would have been Christ's response to the thief next to him on the cross if his attitude had been, " I am a criminal because I experienced depression, anxiety, imperfection and a host of other problems, SAVE US" . Read the text: 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!" "40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." | |
Did you notice the simple process that led up to his salvation? First, a TRUE admission of guilt. Then, with the FULL understanding of his utterly pitiful and hopeless condition, he asked for mercy and relationship.... remember me.
The first criminal's attitude seems to line up more with your view than the last one who was saved:
we certainly cannot say "God is love" but yet only chooses to save a few people
"Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
Basically, that was the attitude of the one that Christ ignored wasn't it? Questioning his ability, goodness, and office of savior. The bible called it insults. Read it again.
When a couple adopts a child, why do we use terms like they are loving, good and noble? Why don't we hurl insults at them and say why didn't you adopt more kids if you think you are so good? It is because we know that they were under no obligation to adopt any child.
You made several comments about reconciling the whole bible; could you reconcile your views with Paul's statements below?
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Pauls' above statements dove tail nicely into my final problem with some of your views - Your problem with God hardening some people.
I have personally experienced how God hardens some people for his own purposes. My own mother and father have refused to see my 17 month old son and well as be the slightest bit interested in my next son due to be born in January. They have told my wife that she should leave me because I am leading her to death. And, they have defamed my character as a hater of God to former friends and family. I am a 4th generation Witness and I cannot recall ever hearing any in my immediate family say the words "I love you" to each other before my 23rd birthday. And then, it was only at my request and prompting. This, inspite of my father being a MS and both my brothers being elders. No matter what I accomplished, my parents never said they were proud of me. I tried for years to impress them.
It was precisely because of their hard hearts that started me looking elsewhere for significance, which eventually led me to Christ. I pray almost daily that God will have mercy on them and bring them to grace and save them. But, it is his good pleasure whom he gives to Christ.
If God chooses to harden some people (who are already lost and as good as dead) in order to bring the objects of his mercy into relationship, what of it?