Who did Jesus die for?

by Perry 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

kid-A

You know something Perry, as an objective viewer of this thread, and as a non-christian atheist, hearing your debate with Lilly really underscores how arrogant and self-deluded some christian fundamentalists, such as yourself, are capable of becoming once they leave the watchtower.
Lilly presents a view of christian principles that even a non-believer can see the social value in. While I dont accept Lillys overall views, at the very least she attempts to worship a god capable of mercy and understanding and who values and respects ALL humans, regardless of religious label. You on the other hand, sit on your judgemental throne like some JW elder casting judgement on all who would dare contradict your pitifully rigid views of the universe and your personal interpretation of who will and who will not be "saved" by your fictional deity.
Your judgemental attitude, condescending tone towards Lilly and pathetic vision of your wrathful desert god who will come to gleefully murder all those who reject christianity simply demonstrates that since leaving the JWs, you have been incapable of maturing intellectually, philosophically or ethically beyond the level of a condescending, judgemental JW elder.
Perry
We DO agree that no one comes to the father unless he is drawn by him. What we disagree on is that you believe only some people will ever be drawn by God and I believe that someday ALL people will be drawn by him.
So now we are back to ALL. OK.
17:12
While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
If Judas was doomed to destruction, that certainly is not all, is it? What about man of lawlessness, son of perdition? (definition below)
Definition
destroying, utter destruction
of vessels
a perishing, ruin, destruction
of money
the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
Contrast the end of Judas with the end of Peter. He rejected Christ, multiple times and abandoned him. One man went out and killed himself the other man went on to preach to nations, was given the keys to the kingdom, etc. When Mary and Martha went to the tomb why did the angel single out Peter?
7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee.
Peter should have been logically the last person to contact after his public rejection of his Teacher 3 days earlier. Why the special attention? One simple reason.
22:31 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail.

Jesus, the High Priest was praying and interceeding on Peter's behalf. He was not praying for Judas. There was nothing good in Peter, but he had the High Priest praying for him and that made all the difference in the world.
Do I believe that others beyond this age and previous to this age and even those of this age are yet to be drawn? Certainly. Do I believe that God is finished with the Jews as a people? No. Do I believe that God will draw people from every nation, tribe language and people? Yes. Will that number be south of 100%. I believe Yes. How much? It's not my business.
I think though that it is statements like this that slows people's progress toward Christ:

I would not expect anything less from a loving God that in his due time, he will drawn all men unto him and reconcile them back to himself.
That may be true, but it will not be because God must do it to live up to his reputation as a loving God. When we understand that we are not God' children, we are Adam's we place ourselves in the proper humble position in relation to God. The same position that the criminal next to Jesus that received life placed himself. The criminal that expected (demanded) salvation as a result of Jesus' power, love, whatever.... was simply ignored. God owes us nothing but has sworn to give everything to those that accept Christ. Peace to you too.
kid-A
As an athiest, how could you be anything but angered by these scriptures? I would feel exactly the same in your position. Peace be with you.
lovelylil

Kid A,
I thank you very much for your comments and coming to my defense.
I do not get upset when people preach the salvation now our way - or you will be destroyed because it is so ingrained into most Christian believers today. It is simply a product of religious institutions who have a gain in bringing people into their churches.
This teaching has done more harm then good as they scare people into the pews yet in their hearts they really do not want to worship a God in the first place. They are coherced out of fear to do so. And many more people wind up HATING God because they cannot reconcile the belief that billions will die a terrible death and that God is Love is preached in the next breath! Why should they accept this, it even sounds so ridiculous? Alas, no matter how many scriptures I can bring out showing that humans are being called, each in their own due time (believers first that non-believers)- most people balk at it.
I don't quite understand why? Is it more comforting to think only a miniscule amount of people who have ever lived on this earth have it right and will be saved then to believe that it matters not one iota if we have it right or wrong - IF there truly is a loving God than we would have to expect like any good (human) parent that he would do ALL WITHIN HIS POWER AND CONTROL to save us ALL.
Can we really say just because he gave us the bible - that is all he has to do. And yet we believe (us Christians) that he has the power to open our eyes, open our hearts, show us with supernatural power he does exist and yet we believe he WILL NOT do this but destroy us anyway? I for one am so glad I no longer worship the God of religious institutions.
Perry - we seem to have much more in common than I thought at first. We will always part ways on the ultimate salvation being for All. I am not saying some will not balk at it and be classified as goats. Simply that at this time - no one is classified as a goat and cut off from earth. God will do everything within his power to reveal himself to every single person in our universe and give them a choice of worshipping him in his own due time. We cannot do one single thing to change this and I am glad it is ultimately in God's hands. I would hate to think something I said would keep people away from God and they would be destroyed. Thankfully the God I believe in does not need me nor you to accomplish his will.
I stick by my statement as I gave lots of scriptural texts to prove that Salvation is open now for believers in Jesus only who will be heavenly heirs and have part in the first resurrection. Everyone else on the face of the earth will recieve their personal invitation to worshp God only once he draws them to him and reveals himself to them and not before and this fact will be "testified to in due time". Lilly
.
Perry

I do not get upset when people preach the salvation now our way
Isn't that what you are doing, saying that salvation comes to people the particular way you see it? I thought salvation came through grace in Christ regardless of time period.
- or you will be destroyed because it is so ingrained into most Christian believers today. It is simply a product of religious institutions who have a gain in bringing people into their churches.
The bible teaches that Christ is the "door" to life. The idea of 'being destroyed" is a WT cult phobia. We're going to be "destroyed" anyway by old age ... haven't you noticed? Without going through the "door" it is life as usual.... live, eat, breed, die. Most churches teach a very easy watered down "come to Christ for relief" message and "praise God for what he is doing in your life now", which is true. Christ gives relief and our primary function as his children is to praise him. But, rarely would a church cover the material I have covered here. How is your charge above different than the JW Paranoia and phobias they install. You sound just like the WT.
This teaching has done more harm then good as they scare people into the pews yet in their hearts they really do not want to worship a God in the first place. They are coherced out of fear to do so.
Again, more hype. Who is being coerced? By whom; since I have never even heard this material alluded to in the 4 years I've been going to various churches. Should we just all stop going to church because you say those that don't agree with you are coercive and join your C T Russell break-a-way Bible Student group? Why are you insulting other denominations? This seems strange.
Your message seems to be something along the lines of, "If you don't feel inclined to have faith in God now, don't worry about it because you are probably not in the ruling class anyway.(Of course, none but a narcissist would feel qualified to rule in their present sinful condition.... so it feels right even though its wrong) Sit tight, you'll be ressurrected and given a chance to be properly exposed to Christ's teachings along with your appropriate group and time period. Then you can decide whether you want to fool with it or not. Yes, being exposed to Christ's teachings is what generated faith when he was here right? Wrong. God's favor generated the faith needed to follow God irrespective of the condition of the recipient as I illustrated in the case of Peter.
Conversely, Jesus reccommened to "keep on asking" & "keep seeking" and it will be given, if we didn't yet have faith. That is what I did and it eventually came.
And many more people wind up HATING God because they cannot reconcile the belief that billions will die a terrible death and that God is Love is preached in the next breath!
More WT-like phobic rhetoric, phony assumptions and false dilemmas. Billions will die regardless of God because they are sinful and get old. More may also die because of large wars waged by other sinners, not yet fought. Are those deaths less terrible than the "terrible deaths" you allege are taught in your fictional "religious institutions"? You really think that if people are exposed to God's wonderful offer of adoption into his un-dying family they will HATE him? Millions upon millions of people are prepared to testify to the opposite.
Why should they accept this, it even sounds so ridiculous?
Millions think it a supreme act of kindness on God's part and take it very seriously? Why don't you see it that way? Exactly what is your testimony Lilly? When and why did you come to Christ?
I don't quite understand why? Is it more comforting to think only a miniscule amount of people who have ever lived on this earth have it right
Who besides the WT teaches that? Where have I said that on this thread? This is a straw man. You however, come closer by your denunciations and rejection of the "God of other religious institutions". Whew!
IF there truly is a loving God than we would have to expect like any good (human) parent that he would do ALL WITHIN HIS POWER AND CONTROL to save us ALL.
There you go again, framing the right message the wrong way. Yes, God WILL do all within his power (which is limitless) to save ALL his family like any good parent. Are all is family? If they are; Why do they need to be born again? How are they born again? Please answer these questions in particular.
Out of his mercy, ALL or moslty all may eventually be born again. But, he is not obligated to adopt anyone. To bind him, even if it's just in our minds to an obligagtion because of his loving nature to save ALL or even ANY is nothing more than an attempt to have God in our employ and at our disposal instead of the other way around. Furthermore, the scriptures show that that approach to Him does not have a good tract record at prompting His mercy. This is the fleshly way of interacting with God - he owes us something because he's good and we're not. The spiritual way is this: I am a sinner, I can't help it. I deserve nothing - Christ, please make your home inside me.
Can we really say just because he gave us the bible - that is all he has to do.
Are you actually telling God what to do here? What is your "to do" list for God Lilly?
And yet we believe (us Christians) that he has the power to open our eyes, open our hearts, show us with supernatural power he does exist and yet we believe he WILL NOT do this but destroy us anyway?
I already showed you three cases in the bible where he did not grant it. Judas, the ignored criminal on the cross, and the man of perdition. Why did you not try and reconcile your views with those cases? Care to go back to using the word "majority" instead of "ALL" like you did earlier in this thread? Another annoying thing you do is keep ascribing death to God. For the record, we got death from our father Adam. Only life comes from God. Give him praise!
I for one am so glad I no longer worship the God of religious institutions.
Are you suggesting that those who don't agree with you worship a false God?
Perry - we seem to have much more in common than I thought at first.
I kinda thought it was progressing about the same.
We will always part ways on the ultimate salvation being for All.
I hope not but that's ok.
Simply that at this time - no one is classified as a goat and cut off from earth.
Agreed
God will do everything within his power to reveal himself to every single person in our universe and give them a choice of worshipping him in his own due time.
This sounds like similar WT dogma that elevates our position above our captivity and assumes that we could choose if only we had the right circumstances. Dozens of scriptures teach that we choose only after being chosen (given the ability)
We cannot do one single thing to change this and I am glad it is ultimately in God's hands.
The thing that we cannot change is not God's necessity to save us to protect his reputation; the thing that we cannot change is our inability to even choose God. He must grant us that by grace.
Could you please explain your idea of God's grace, because it seems so different that the one I read in the bible.
I would hate to think something I said would keep people away from God and they would be destroyed. Thankfully the God I believe in does not need me nor you to accomplish his will.
Agreed.
I stick by my statement as I gave lots of scriptural texts to prove that Salvation is open now for believers in Jesus only who will be heavenly heirs and have part in the first resurrection.
I agree.
Everyone else on the face of the earth will recieve their personal invitation to worshp God only once he draws them to him and reveals himself to them and not before and this fact will be "testified to in due time". Lilly
If you are talking about people who are living now in the church age, I can't see where you have any scriptural support. If you are talking about people before this age or people after the rapture of the church, then that's a different story. I'm just curious, the personal invitation that you talk about above, is that the same as being chosen?
lovelylil

Hi perry,
I am not argueing with you at all. I thought we were having a mighty good debate. I did give scriptural support that the ransom for all will be testified in due time. Just you will not accept it as you see it differently. I also gave you scriptural proof that the heirs with Christ (church) receive the first resurrection then the rest of the dead are brought back later - after the 1,000 years.
I am in no way saying you have to agree with me. Remember I am the one who does not believe you will be destroyed due to a different doctrinal belief? So it does not matter to me if people agree or not. I am also not above thinking I certainly can be wrong. I would like to address some points you made.
Who scares people into the pews? not only Jehovah's Witnesses by means of the second death but other churches do it by means of hellfire. Many people go to church out of FEAR. There is no way you can deny this. And many have left God out of disgust for the kind of God the churches teach them about. God does not want any to go to him because they are afraid if they don't he will kill, torture and burn them alive. He wants them to go to him because they love him and want to worship him.
Where in the bible does it say that the two you mentioned will not be resurrected? The bible clearly says "the wages sin pays is death" - if someone sins and then they die, they will be resurrected again.
I think this is a valid point. Please try to think before you respond to tell me I am wrong. I just want you to imagine the following scenarios and see how you would honestly answer.
The bible says that Satan who is far superior to us humans in form and intellect has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, and that he is ruler of this world misleading the entire earth, correct?
God knows we have sin totally ingrained into us by way of Adam. We did not personally sin against God but he sinned and we inherited that sin and it is deeply ingrained into our bodies and minds, correct?
God knows the world is utterly filled with false religions, false prophets, and others teaching things contrary to his word so much so that many are confused about what truth really is. correct?
God knows most humans have NEVER gotten a true witness about his son either due to living in an unchristian land, an area that cannot be easily reached, or becuase those imperfect humans who are supposed to preach Christ are not doing a very good job, correct?
God sees the suffering in all the earth and how millions die every year in some countries from disease, hunger, disasters, etc and while this is going on - they may not have the fortitude to pick up a bible and read about God, as they are dying by the millions, correct?
God also knows many leaders in his churches who are supposed to represent him have raped and sodomized young children, abused people emotionally and spiritually and cast out those who truly love him and thus because of this many have a bad taste in their mouths about him and his word, correct?
God knows we humans deal with many other issues, family strife, working long days, illness, mental illness, discouragement, some mental retardation and a host of other issues, correct?.
Not only does God know all these things but he is choosing not to interfer in man's affairs right now to change them. And even with all this, if some do not put faith in his son now - he is going to torture, burn and annihilate them off the face of the earth? correct?
If all these things are correct how can you reconcile all that with this simple statement: God is Love?
This would offend anyone even with limited sensibilties and God's ways are far superior to any humans. If it offends our sense of what is right - how can you think it would not offend God's senses when he is portrayed as a sadistic mass murderer who is ready to kill any refusing to worship him? Is he a bully God? No of course not.
I am not saying God HAS to save everyone. I am saying he WILL save everyone. His WILL is that everyone get saved. Each in his own time. You should be happy about this as it means all your family will be saved too, not just some who go to church or who have the correct understanding of the bible - which by the way no one does. Why would you argue this point that only some are saved?
As far as my testimony, I find it quite odd that you would ask. I will tell you although it proves nothing at all:
I was called into Christ a few years ago when he released me from bondage of religious institutions. while I do occasionally attend a church I do not feel it necessary as my main spiritual training is by Holy Spirit and directed by my Lord Jesus.
As one professing to be an heir I am also an Ambassador of Christ. I do not speak of my own accord but must present all the scriptures in their complete context as one whole unit. This means if there is a seemingly contradiction in scripture I must find more texts to shed light on it. The way I came to learn the ransom is for all is by trying to reconcile the teaching that God is Love, yet thinking he is going to destroy many people just for not believing in his son. While doing so I found Many scriptures that prove this point in the OT and the NT that there is a salvation for all people. Hallelujah!
I cannot lie and must tell the full and total truth. God IS LOVE and has a plan for all. That is why the gospel literally means good news. This simple message upsets many people. They may ask - why should I do good then if I will be resurrected anyway, let me eat drink and enjoy life? If that is how they feel, then that is what they should do.
Others want to believe they alone or their church has a corner on God and his word and only they can translate it correctly - good for all those too I say.Why do the churches today not teach the true gospel - ransom for ALL? Because if they did virtually NO ONE would be in their pews that is why. If not for fear most will not attend church. Because God is not calling all of them at this time but only calling the church and most of mankind has only apathy towards God. But still - he loves them.
However there are some like me that this does not apply to. Because even knowing that I could basically be free to enjoy life without restrictions and will die and come back you may ask WHY I choose to do otherwise? Because I really was called to be with Christ and I cherish that above all other things that any could offer me on this earth whether it be money, freedom, leisure, power, fame, friendship or anything else. And I attend church, read the bible and pray to God - BECAUSE I WANT TO AND BECAUSE I LOVE HIM!
We do not have to agree on this point of who Jesus died for because God will prove it either way when the time comes. And we will probably find that we both got points wrong. And I can fully accept you as a friend in Christ whether we agree on this or not. Peace Lilly

Perry

Lilly,

Just to re-cap some of my questions, please answer. Because I want to really understand:

1. Are all people in God's family?

2. If so, why do they need to be born again?

3. If not, What happens to a person when they are born again?

4. What are believers ingrafted into?

5. I easily deceive my indoor captive parrots with lighting, artificially lenghtening days to prompt breeding. How easy would it be for me to deceive parrots living in freedom? If it is impossible, why would God be in our debt because of Satan's deceptions perpetrated on the captives to sin? Isn't the real problem our captivity itself that we inherit from our father Adam? Are Adam's childern the same as Gods children?

6. It sounds like you feel that the real problem is our social environment and that once that is fixed, then we won't be so stressed out and therefore be able to obey God. Why is it then that Peter was eventually successful and Judas was not in their relationship with Christ? Didn't they both come from the same environment? Did Peter's environment change when he overcame his weakness. What role do you think that Christ played when he said "I have prayed for you that your faith won't give out?

7. If ALL are saved no matter what, why are we commanded to go to all the nations to and teach them to "obey". Wouldn't it just be easier to teach them to wait until we had our "family strife, working long days, illness, mental illness, discouragement, some mental retardation depressions, and stresses" taken care of by the thousand year rule? Why didn't Jesus teach this? Why didn't his diciples teach this?

8. Why did he and his diciples, in part, teach this instead?

Click Verse for Commentary Notes

Mt 7:13 - Show Context

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

Ro 9:22 - Show Context

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction,

1Co 5:5 - Show Context

you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Php 1:28 - Show Context

and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear omen to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God.

Php 3:19 - Show Context

Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.

1Th 5:3 - Show Context

When people say, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape.

2Th 1:9 - Show Context

They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

1Ti 6:9 - Show Context

But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and hurtful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.

2Pe 2:1 - Show Context

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:3 - Show Context

And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.

2Pe 2:12 - Show Context

But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and killed, reviling in matters of which they are ignorant, will be destroyed in the same destruction with them,

2Pe 3:7 - Show Context

But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:16 - Show Context

speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Here's the meaning of the Greek word destruction:

Definition
destroying, utter destruction of vessels a perishing, ruin, destruction of money the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

Lilly, I have not challenged you on the scriptures you presented about resurrections and the drawing of people unto himself in the thousand year reign.

Specifically, I am challenging you to scripturally back up your teachings:

1. ALL will eventually be saved

2. God owes us salvation because he is a loving God

3. Our ability to choose God or not is related to our environment (or anything else including satan) and not primarily to our captivity to sin

lovelylil

Perry
I will try to answer you the best I can and then I think we should put this to rest. So I will probably not respond to this thread any more. I think we both gave many good points for each side but will have to decide things for oursleves. While we agree on many points we will not ever agree on whether the ransom was for all or just some. Thats o.k. it is NOT essential for our salvation.
I am sure you will not agree with these verses but will put them here for the benefit of others who want to check for themselves.
Your first Q - where is the scriptural support that All will be saved?
1Timothy 2:3-6 - For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men be saved, and to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Timothy says God WILL have all men saved. Some translate this as "it is God's will" to have all men saved but all men will not be saved. This is not what the verse says. It says Our God and Savior WHO Will have all men saved. When God "wills" something, it comes to fruition. It says the ransom for all - will be testified in due time. What does this mean? Testified means: proven, demonstrated or fulfilled. So the ransom for ALL (which is what is says) will be proven in due time. That time was not in the days the bible was written but a future time.
John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to myself.
Jesus is saying he will draw all people to himself. Some say this means "all types of people" but Jesus clearly says "all people". You made a good point that no one can go to the father unless drawn to him? That is true. So we know many are being drawn now (Christians) but what about the majority of the earth? If they are included in this "All" - which they must be, they would have to be called at some time. That goes back to the above verse as you may ask when will they be drawn and have proved to them that the ransom is for all? It says "in due time".
Romans 11:22
For God hath concluded them (unbelievers) all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Some bible says "left them in unbelief" so he could have mercy. If like you said those who stay in unbelief will be destroyed - how is this showing mercy on them? Why would God leave some in unbelief and say it is so he can have mercy on them? Because it is not time to draw them to himself yet. He is leaving them to live their lives as unbelievers until he draws them. In other words he is merciful because he is leaving them alone.
Because he is leaving them alone (in their sins) and not drawing them at this time, he is not counting their sins against them. He is leaving them alone until he turns his attention to them which will be after calling the church. See the text below:
2 Corinthians 5:18-20
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.That God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he committed to us the message of reconcilliation.
These are Paul's words. Notice he says God reconcile "us" - he is addressing believers. For God has already reconciled us to himself. He then gave us (believers only) the ministry of reconcilliation. This word reconcile means to restore or bring back. What is Paul saying our message as believers is: That God is reconciling the world back to himself and at this time is NOT counting men's sins against them. Notice he did not say he is not counting our sins against us but mens sin (unbelievers) against them. Not at this time.
He will count their sin if and when he draws them but they still willfully sin. But that is not yet. He will count OUR sins - the church at this time for we were called and accepted into his family at this time. The NT is recorded for believers, not unbelievers. All the scriptures that show if we sin we can be cut off - is speaking directly to the church and no one else. I say this because God has left the unbelievers in their sins until the time comes to draw them. Until he draws them - they cannot possible "go to him:" correct? The scriptures cannot be broken for it says "NO ONE can come to the father unless he draws him". The bible is not a rule book for all of mankind - it is an open letter from God to those who believe in him.
Now for the 2nd point.
You said - Where does it say God owes us salvation because he is a loving God? The answer is nowhere! He does not owe us anything and that includes those who believe and those who do not believe. For we are ALL sinners in his eyes and if he so chooses he could wipe us all out tomarrow.
I NEVER said he owes us, or should save everyone - what I said was it is his WILL to save everyone. And since God is all loving, I would not expect anything else to be true*. Just like I as a human parent WANT all my children to live - God also WANTS all his children to live. That is his desire - to save all people.
* please do not think I am saying what I expect of God - I am simply using this as a term of speach. for instance I expect my kids to get good grades in school - they Always do, so this is the pattern they set. With God he has set the pattern of being loving and merciful thus I would always expect him to be such.
If the bible is true, which we know it is, and it states that we cannot go to God unless he calls us to him, and that Satan is blinding human's puny minds to the truth, and God knows all we are dealing with in this retched world, And that God is not interfering in man's affairs to correct these matters for us at this time - but yet is saying too bad for you because if you do not obey me and because you do not - I am going to destroy you, wouldn't this be considered unjust to any loving human parent? How can you think this could possibly be true of God?
If it is God who left the unbelievers in their disbelief - how can he punish them for it?
But the main Q that I keep saying you are not answering is this one: If this is what you believe and most Christians do that what I stated in the above paragraph is true as far as the condition man is in at this time. But we will be destroyed anyway without God intervening, how do you reconcile this with the fact that God is Love? It does not seem loving to me nor most other rational persons. And we are mere humans. Either God is NOT love or WE got it WRONG!
If we have it wrong and by "we" I mean most Christians and God is Love, we must then believe that he will do all in his power to save each and every person on the earth. All peoples like the scriptures say. How will he do this: by healing the body and minds of the unbelievers, by healing their hearts and turning them towards himself, by abyssing Satan for 1,000 years so as not to mislead the earth any longer.There are many scriptures that prove that this is exactly what he plans to do. Too numerous to list here
The 3rd Q - it does not matter if our being unable to choose God right now has to do with environment or our deeply ingrained sin. I suspect it is a mixture of both things. The point was - we did not personally sin against God, Adam did. We did not have a choice to choose God while being in a perfect state and knowing God in a personal way - like Adam did. We did not have a choice due to all the reasons I gave in my last post. God knows this and knows we cannot possible overcome our sins and that is why when Adam sinned he immediately made a way out - his son Christ Jesus.
In fact the ONLY ones who can overcome sin, and yet they will still sin but can overcome it are those "born again". And this goes back again to God's willingness to save. Born again means we have been transformed by God's Holy Spirit and thus only those who he draws to him can become "born again". Does this make sense to you? No one can say they want to be born again and it happens. God must draw them to himself first. If God does NOT call them into this arrangement which is the only way to overcome their sins - then how can he punish them for not being born again?
I think you are confusing being "born again" with being saved. These are two seperate things. The churches often mix the two up so I am not blaming you. The bible Never once says you must be "born again" to be saved. But it does say you must be "born again" to enter the kingdom of heaven. In this text looking at the context, it simply means to enter the heavenly realm, you must be born again.
You can be saved and NOT be born again, one example is John the Baptist. He died prior to the Holy Spirit being poured out and thus could not have been "born again" but does this mean he will not be saved? Being born again only applies to Christs church for they must enter the heavenly realm to reign with him for 1,000 years. We are born again by the Holy Spirit and this is our promise that in due time we will receive the better ressurection, the first one to immortal life with Christ. It is we (the church) that is being told to go into the narrow gate. This is the heavenly gate and it is narrow and cramped and few will be able to enter into it. (Paul explains in great detail what it will be like when we are completely transformed (born again) in 1 Corinthians 15.)
I actually like the term "spirit begotten" better because none of us are fully "born again" until we recieve the incorruptable body and can enter the heavenly realm. Either word you use this only applies to the heirs of the kingdom. Although at this time there is only a heavenly hope for Christians (one hope, one faith, one baptism) - in due time God will restore the whole world. The JW's get a little ahead of themselves here because they are already teaching you can live forever on earth. While that could be true in the future, it is not a hope for Christians during the church age. They are to be heirs - kings and priests able to enter the heavenly realm. That being said - who are they kings and priests for? It would have to be the rest of the dead. Revelation 20:5
Hope this gives you satisfying anwers to your Q;'s now please answer mine: How do you reconcile your beliefs about God only saving those who he draws to him (which is not all) with this simple stated fact in scripture: God IS Love? Lilly
Navigator

Has anyone ever considered that Jesus did not die for the "sins of Mankind" but simply to demonstrate that Death has no reality? It is impossible to make that kind of demonstration without going through the process. I don't consider the Bible to be that reliable a document to rely on for the answer to this question. As far as I'm concerned, the story of the Prodigal Son tells us everything we need to know. Maybe when we get sick of "slopping the hogs" and starving we, like the Prodigal Son, will remember that in our Father's house, even the servants have more than enough and to spare.
LittleToe

Navigator:But, for those who have ears to hear, will they remember?
Apostate Kate

Greetings Perry, Lilly, I have enjoyed reading your posts.
I actually do side with Perry on every point being discussed. As far as the Bible goes, it is not for us to guess what the writer meant, but it is our responsibily to research exactly what the writer meant, if we want to consider ourselves students of the Word of God.
On- 1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I agree with Barnes on this one;
1Ti 2:4
Verse 4. Who will have all men to be saved. That is, it is in
accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires. The word will cannot be taken here in the absolute sense, denoting a decree like that by which he willed the creation of the world, for then it would certainly be done. But the word is often used to denote a desire, wish, or what is in accordance with the nature of any one. Thus it may be said of God that he "wills" that his creatures may be
happy--because it is in accordance with his nature, and because he has made abundant provision for their happiness--though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to make them happy. God wills that sickness should be relieved, and sorrow mitigated, and that the oppressed should go free, because it
is agreeable to his nature; though it is not true that he wills it in the sense that he exerts his absolute power to produce it. A parent wills the welfare of his child. It is in accordance with his nature, his feelings, his desires; and he makes every needful arrangement for it. If the child is not virtuous and happy, it is his own fault. So God wills that all men should be saved. It would be in accordance with his benevolent nature. He has made ample provision for it. He uses all proper means to secure their salvation. He uses no positive means
to prevent it, and if they are not saved it will be their own fault. For places in the New Testament where the word here translated "will" (qelw) means to desire or wish, Lu 8:20; 23:8; Joh 16:19; Ga 4:20; Mr 7:24; 1Co 7:7; 11:3; 14:5; Mt 15:28. This passage cannot mean, as many have supposed, that God wills that all kinds of men should be saved, or that some sinners of every rank and class may be saved, because
(1.) the natural and obvious interpretation of the language is opposed to such a sense. The language expresses the desire that "all men" should be saved, and we should not depart from the obvious sense of a passage unless necessity requires it.
(2.) Prayer and thanksgiving 1Ti 2:1 are directed to be offered, not for some of all ranks and conditions, but for all mankind. No exception is made, and no direction is given that we should exclude any of the race from the expressions of our sympathy, and from an interest in our supplications. The reason given here for that prayer is, that God desires that all men should be saved. But how could this be a reason for praying for all, if it means that God desired only the salvation of some of all ranks?
(3.) In 1Ti 2:5-6, the apostle gives reasons showing that God wished the salvation of all men, and those reasons are such as to prove that the language here is to be taken in the most unlimited sense. Those reasons are,
(a) that there is one God over all, and one Mediator between God and men--showing that God is the Father of all, and has the same interest in all; and
(b) that Christ gave himself a ransom for all--showing that God desired their salvation. This verse proves
(1.) that salvation is provided for all --for if God wished all men to be saved, he would undoubtedly make provision for their salvation; and if he had not made such provision, it could not be said that he desired their salvation, since no one can doubt that he has power to provide for the salvation of all;
(2.) that salvation should be offered to all men--for if God desires it, it is right for his ministers to announce that desire, and if he desires it, it is not proper for them to announce anything contrary to this;
(3.) that men are to blame if they are not saved. If God did not wish their salvation, and if he had made no provision for it, they could not be to blame if they rejected the gospel. If God wishes it, and has made provision for it, and they are not saved, the sin must be their own--and it is a great sin, for there is no greater crime which a man can commit than to destroy his own soul, and tomake himselfthe eternal enemy of his Maker.
And to come unto the knowledge of the truth. The truth which God has revealed: the "truth as it is in Jesus." Cmt. on Eph 4:21.
{b} "Who will have" Joh 3:15-16; 2Pe 3:9

Who did Jesus die for?

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