First law of thermodynamics vs God vs Big Bang

by EndofMysteries 88 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    They are mathematical tools that describe how energy and space/time interact. They are abstractions we use to quantify our universe. But they don't exist as an intrinsic part of the universe.

    I know that science is an instrument and approach used to measure the nature or description of the universe(physical), the conduct of matter and energy, space, time... The behaviour of the universe is not proscriptive. Science deals ONLY with physical(measured)

    The statement that I highlighted is a very interesting statement. Can you explain? I think that what you are saying is that laws do not govern the conduct of the universe but that laws explain or describe its behavior mathematically. Very interesting relationship. And if that is what you mean then the speed of light does not proscribe light to travel at that speed limit but it is an observation of a property of light.

    In other words, science is an approach to measure the properties of the universe. These properties are called laws.

    In other words, the properties (character) displayed by the universe do not govern the universe.

    If this is what you are saying, I understand, but I have to think and express my view on the relationship.

    Of course a creationist would simply say, true, given the universe, but that is the way God designed the universe to behave. But that does not have anything to do with the universe not being proscriptive.


  • Viviane
    Viviane
    In court, an attorney can use any statement or written information and use it to show what he represents it to mean or what he concludes it means as it favors his theory but an analytical reader is impartial and his objective is to understand the author.

    Yes. All evidence points to the Bible not being science book or sciency or reconciling with science in any meaningful way.

    Regarding YOUR conclusion that the Bible and Science do not reconcile is a very B ROAD statement. It is quite a burden to prove what you have stated.

    That's no more my conclusion that the fact that it's Monday in NYC as I write this. It's simply the observable facts.

    But my post is not about that nor is any desire that I have shown to learn more about theories or to examine scientific evidence relating to HOW (to quote the PHD) the universe was formed, a concession that God does not exist.

    Yeah, that's I said. You're arguing but agreeing with me. Weird.

    I refer you to re-read the theme of this thread as it relates to my post. Also, I am only expressing how I think. I am not trying to persuade you to see things my way.

    No thanks, I've already read your comments.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries
    We can't claim that God exists and then turn around and say, "He's undetectable and exists outside of space/time." That is, by its very definition, non-existence.

    Thanks to the modern age of computers, a good example of how this is possible can be explained. Have you ever played a video game? A game where programmers created an entire world, with characters, weather, etc. Programmers must define the laws in that world. What is possible, what is random, what is not random, etc. Imagine them creating a very detailed and automated world. Imagine the characters instead of being pre programmed with what they would do, they had very high AI and were able to learn, become self aware, and make choices, etc. You would be the God of that world. They can't see you, you can't ever physically enter it because you exist outside of it (unless you pull a TRON). That example is a very real possibility. Since it can be done, what's to say a similar concept is not what has happened with us?

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    So God is real and we are just part of some computer program? He can't visit us because WE are not real?

    Then why bother worshipping him? We aren't real anyway. Defy your programming and do what you want.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    Imagine the characters instead of being pre programmed with what they would do, they had very high AI and were able to learn, become self aware, and make choices, etc. You would be the God of that world.

    Imagine you saw the matrix, or ever heard of a virus or man in the middle attacks or elevated priviledge attacks. Had you knowledge of any of those things you would know there is no "God of that world" in computing.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    CodedL,

    I have several questions. They are not rhetorical.

    First I am waiting for an explanation of what you meant that physical laws are not intrinsic to energy matter space time.

    Unrelated to the first, Second, regarding the dynamics of how the universe was formed. It seems to me that the universe was not formed randomly, that it contained information.

    Also, regarding the relationships between the components of the universe, the law of gravity is an example of such relationship. Did this relationship for example, form as a result, only because of how the universe turned out? Given the big bang, again and again, and again. Would the universe we know today always form with the same relationships.

    I am sure that you believe that space is something physical because it exist and it can be measured. Even if space could exist empty and void of anything at all. It still would not be considered nothing. Given the big bang theory, space did not always exist in the form it takes as part of the universe today but it was formed as a product of the big bang.

    I cannot understand how the universe could come out of nothing. Something had to change.

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    real possibility. Since it can be done, what's to say a similar concept is not what has happened with us?

    Considering possibilities is waste of time. The only way to establish conclusively and unequivocally is with physical evidence. I do not mean interpretation of evidence. What I mean to say is that if God exists then you should be able to communicate with him somehow sufficient to prove to you and convince you of his existence. Otherwise, you have nothing in your pocket. You do not know and your thinking could be wrong.



  • Viviane
    Viviane
    I have several questions. They are not rhetorical.

    Seriously, every question you asked can be answered via youtube videos by actual physicists and books.

    What is with people coming onto forums and declaring "that can't be true because I don't understand it!" when they've done absolutely no work whatsoever to learn anything about it?

  • Fisherman
    Fisherman

    Check out this post I found, another school of thought that challenges any believed absolute authority.

    http://blog.vixra.org/2010/09/08/krauss-missunderstands-energy-in-general-relativity-to-argue-against-god/



  • Coded Logic
    Coded Logic

    Hey Fisherman, thanks for the follow up questions. I'll try to answer them to the best of my abilities.

    I think that what you are saying is that laws do not govern the conduct of the universe but that laws explain or describe its behavior mathematically.

    I think that sums up what I was saying very nicely.

    Second, regarding the dynamics of how the universe was formed. It seems to me that the universe was not formed randomly, that it contained information.

    I don't think "information" is the right word. The formation of our universe had structure and order. It's important to remember though, that such labels are entirely circular - as we define "structure" and "order" by things we observe in our universe. Another way of putting it would be, "the formation of the early universe had properties of the universe." I don't think this will come as a surprise to anyone.

    Perhaps a more informative answer to your question would be that "random" (at least in the context that you're using the word) does not exist within our universe. Everything about our universe can be expressed in relation to probabilities. I think this short video might help you out a bit (so long as you understand "quantum randomness" means uncertainty and does NOT mean "anything goes" or "without order"):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJIWobQh9WI

    Given the big bang, again and again, and again. Would the universe we know today always form with the same relationships.

    I don't know. But there are many scientist looking to either verify or falsify this exact question. It's called the Multiverse.

    I am sure that you believe that space is something physical because it exist and it can be measured. Even if space could exist empty and void of anything at all. It still would not be considered nothing. Given the big bang theory, space did not always exist in the form it takes as part of the universe today but it was formed as a product of the big bang.

    All empty space has both positive and negative energy in it. Or, as Lawrence Krauss always likes to say, "Empty space weighs something." Without that energy, you can't have space/time. Thus you can't have empty space without having quantum fluctuations or stable energy. And if it didn't have that in it - it wouldn't exist.

    I cannot understand how the universe could come out of nothing. Something had to change.

    "Something" didn't change. But nothing did. It became more complicated.

    Also, in regards to the link you provided from Vixra Log - I thought I should let you know that article operates on a premise that is fundamentally flawed. The author makes the statment:

    I am going to . . . dispute the claim that the energy of the universe is zero only when it is flat. It is a very strange statement from a cosmologists because it is more commonly said that the total energy of the universe is zero for a closed universe, i.e. for positive curvature, not flat space.

    His entire position is based on a Straw Man Argument. We don't know the universe is flat because it has zero energy. Rather, we know the universe is flat because we've directly measured the structure of the CMB using the WMAP probe. And it's by seeing that the universe is flat that we've determined that it has zero energy. (This finding was also later corroborated by the Planck spacecraft)

    To put this in perspective, his argument is like saying, "You're trying to say (some object) is a trout because you confirmed it's a fish. Just because it's a fish doesn't mean it's a trout." When, in fact, the opposite was true and you had confirmed that the object was a trout - and by knowing that it was a trout you were able to determine that it was a fish. His argument just doesn't hold water (no pun intended).

    Furthermore, we've also independently confirmed the total sum energy of the universe is zero using the gravitational lensing around galactic clusters to "weigh" the universe.

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