Trade Centers/Pentagon

by Butters 82 Replies latest jw friends

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    skyking.....Your post on WTC 7 illustrates very well the need to get facts straight, which was the point of my question to Butters (who claimed that WTC 7 did not have "any structural damage"). It displays a photo of the north face of the building which shows no visible damage and fires on only two floors, and you claim that this photo is representative of "what we are to believe took the building down". You claim that "this is the south side, the side that sustained the damage," but that is not true. It is, in fact, the side that faced away from the WTC, which could not possibly have been hit directly by debris.

    If you had examined photos showing the south side and the southwest corner of the building, you would have seen that (1) there was a huge hole along the southwest corner many stories tall, (3) a similar hole on the south face, and (2) the whole south face engulfed in smoke from fires burning along the south face (notice how the smoke line starts abruptly at the southwest corner).

    The last six frames are from a video looking east up Vesey that clearly shows that the column of smoke is coming from WTC7. There are also all the statements by firefighters which I posted in a similar thread a while back, which describe the structural damage mentioned above:

    "A little north of Vesey I said, we'll go down, let's see what's going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what's going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn't look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn't look good. But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we're going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn't look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn't really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I'm standing next to said, that building doesn't look straight. So I'm standing there. I'm looking at the building. It didn't look right, but, well, we'll go in, we'll see. So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody's going into 7, there's creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned...There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we'll head back to the command post" [1]
    "By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o'clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o'clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse" [2]
    "They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down" [3].

    Moreover there is Camera Planet footage of WTC 7 from the afternoon of 9/11 of a firefighter who points out that WTC 7 was leaning and was going to collapse:

    "You see where the white smoke is and this thing leaning like this. It's definitely coming down. There's no way to stop it. Because you have to go up in there to put it out and its already -- the structural integrity is not there in the building".

    There is also CBS coverage around 5pm on 9/11 and one of their reporters, Scott Pelley, just visited the site and described what he saw:

    "The smoke that you see behind me is coming primarily from a 50 or 60 story tall building that was half a block from the World Trade Center. That building is deeply involved in flame, there is flame shooting out of the windows. When we were below it just about 30 minutes ago, big panes of glass were popping out of the building and crashing down below. Rescue workers really can't get into that area right now because it is much too dangerous....There were a number of firefighters and police officers in the area. They were watching Building Number Seven burn because there was frankly nothing they could do about it. The inferno was huge. So much of the building was collapsing into the street, bit by bit, that they were unable to do anything with it."

    I don't want to get mired into a technical discussion about how the building came down...the only reason I posted in this thread is to point out that erroneous claims are often passed around as "basic facts" in much 9/11 research on the internet. If one wants to make a credible counter-claim to the standard version of events, it should be based on the best evidence possible and avoid getting basic facts wrong.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Big Tex Thermite was found the only explosives capable of taking it buildings down. So yes the proof is there. As i have asked over and over explain te Thermite. No one can because there is only one explanation. YOu also need to watch the video.

    I remember you going on about that in the other thread(s). I read so many articles from there, I don't recall which one addressed thermite. However, my lasting impression was that I did not accept nor believe the statements that claim thermite was there.

    However, just to be devil's advocate for a moment, the mere presence of thermite (while interesting and intriguing) does not mean building(s) were blown up, nor does it mean the government/business interests/whomever was behind their destruction.

    I'm sorry, but I just don't believe the scenario. Not because I am unwilling to believe the American government is capable of such a thing (quite the contrary) but I see no credible evidence. At least with the assasinations of JFK and MLK there is more to hang a conspiratorial hat on. Not that I'm saying there was a conspiracy there, but now I'm really off track!

  • Butters
    Butters

    Big Tex, That makes sense. I understand your point of view now. Thank you for elaborating on this. Everyone, I think we can now safely come to the conclusion that something other then airplanes brought down WTC#7. Possibly detonators, we don't know. But definitely not airplanes. Now, the next step is to start looking into the possibility that there was terrorist involvement here. Did they plan to take down #7 too? What was their interests in this building as well? We know why they attacked the towers and pentagon.

  • skyking
    skyking

    All I did is a Google search for the South side and this is the picture that came up under google search for damage to south side of tower seven. Maybe you could post the correct photo for all of us to see. Everything I said is correct the building did not fall to the south side it fell inward.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    Maybe you could post the correct photo for all of us to see

    I think she did. Several times.

  • Butters
    Butters

    NO Big Mex, I think that Skyking is saying that the photo we are seeing is the one that shows damage to the side that the building did not facade on. He is implying that the structure collapsed with fatigue on the opposing side first, not the latter. Shalom?

  • skyking
    skyking

    Leolaia I just noticed your link to the video of building seven. I noticed a lot of dark smoke. Did you know a cold oxygen starved fire is what we see here. Not a red hot almost smoke free which is indicative of a hot fire, certainly not even remotely close to the heat needed to melt the metal frame. Correct my please if I am wrong.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    As Big Tex already pointed out, the photos I posted above are of the south face or show smoke pouring out the south face. I made this clear in the post.

    NO Big Mex, I think that Skyking is saying that the photo we are seeing is the one that shows damage to the side that the building did not facade on.

    Butters....As I already said, it was the south side that was facing the WTC -- not the north side. skyking posted a photo of the undamaged north side (which he mistakenly called the "south side"), I posted several pictures of the damaged south side. Notice for instance, photos #4 and #5 from the top which were taken at Ground Zero which clearly show that this was the side facing the WTC.

    Did you know a cold oxygen starved fire is what we see here. Not a red hot almost smoke free which is indicative of a hot fire, certainly not even remotely close to the heat needed to melt the metal frame.

    Why do you assume that the metal had to melt? It is well known that the metal loses its load-bearing strength at lower temperatures, and the building was structurally damaged as well.

  • Butters
    Butters

    I see. Ok folks. Based on the evidence, I think we can close this thread now and go eat campbells chicken noodle soup for our noodly heads. Let's all basque in the warmth of TV's glowing truth, and learn from our loving media and be good Americans. Love your president and salute him. He is a smart and kind man. (Anti-Butters 6:66)

  • free2beme
    free2beme

    Considering you have a South Park photo, you should be a fan and have watched their take on this. It said what I have heard many time ...

    We want to see our government as being so organized, strong and powerful. That they could pull off something this complex and detailed without getting caught. We want to see them as being some super natural powerful, as it makes us feel better then to face the scary reality of what really happened. Yet we ignore that the government can not even pull off a war in Iraq without being exposed for their lies. That they can not get a hummer in the Oval Office, without being uncovered. They can not send e-mails to gay under age boys, without being exposed. Yet we are suppose to believe that this same group of men and woman could pull off the largest disaster in human or American history, and not have someone talk? Something leak? or someone seeing something and saying something? I realize that some members in the families of the people who lost love ones, want to see something else. It hurt to think someone killed the people they love, simply for a jihad of some religion we hardly understand. Yet that is reality, and it sucks and it hurts. That is what terror causes, and that is why it is something that works to get a point across, even if the point is something so wrong that we wish it could not be.

    While it is fun to wonder, to read and watch things on this. It has also been proven by architects on how it went down. It has been shown that planes can and do disintegrate in crashes. It has been shown over and over, that it did happen. Yet that does not stop people, they will continue and in some thing this large. There will always be something, something that makes you think, "I wonder?" Yet that is what a disorganized disaster and chaos leads too. What really should be focused on, is stopping this from ever happening again. Not through elections, but through stopping these extremist from getting into our country, stopping them from harming people who have nothing to do with their religion and educating these people in that it is time to grow as a society and culture and move on.

    While I am still open minded enough to consider and watch evidence, and read about this information. I am prone to think it is often nothing more then speculation on something that is highly unlikely. Yet I have spent long nights considering far more foolish and outlandish things, by other people's standards, to completely say that all evidence in this case is over from being shown. I just highly think our government is not that smart.

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