Homosexuality and the Bible

by lisavegas420 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

lisavegas420

In another posting, I wrote that I sent a JW sister this email:

In your email to me, you said...".......We need Jehovah's view( that's the challenge) also keep in mind that you are studying the Bible, so its Jehovah's view you should be seeking not man's." Then you sent me a man written document with some scriptures added to reinforce his own view point of what Jehovah wants. Even if you believe that the scriptures are without error...Would you consider your understanding may be in error? Isn't it important to be open to new truth and understanding from Scriptures?
The bible accepts sexual practices that most humans condemn and condemns sexual practices that some accept. Lots of them! Just a few examples: The Bible says clearly that sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife. Polygamy is acceptable. Slavery and sex with slaves, marriage of girls aged 11-13, and treatment of women as property are all accepted practices in the Scriptures.
I'm fairly certain you don't agree with these teachings from the Bible about sex. I know I don't.
It would be my understanding that certain Bible verses should not be understood as God's law for all time periods. Some verses are specific to the culture and time they were written, and are no longer viewed as appropriate in most modern cultures.
Setting sexual standards that please God -- Should simply be.....(standards appropriate for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike), they should be standards based on love, health, and wholeness for ourselves and for others.
Imagine the suffering that could be avoided if the church's could say this to their lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender children: "We don't understand your views about sexual orientation, but we love and trust you. As long as you love God and seek God's will in your life, you are welcome here."
When asked "What is the greatest commandment?" Jesus replied, "The great commandment is this... to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the second command is, to love your neighbor as you love yourself."
Also isn't it true that Jesus and the Jewish prophets were silent about any kind of same-sex behavior? I'm beginning to believe that the Bible has nothing in it to approve or condemn homosexual orientation as we understand it.
The scriptures about Sodom, isn't about homosexuals, it's about gang rape. Then Lot offered his daughters...so also......child molestion. How disgusting!
You did not answer my question which was :"what if a gay wanted to become a Jehovah?"
Instead what you sent me just opened up an entirely different set of questions. Who wrote this? A man? Where did he get his information? Is he a prophet? And concerning the last paragraph........We are NOT under the Israelite laws. That's all I have for now. I'm still reading the document on prophesy. Thank you again,
This morning I got an answer back from her:
Hi Lisa,
Best thing for me to do, is come over and answer your questions from the Bible, which I can do on tuesday, I'm off that day and I can be there at 1pm if that's convenient for you.
As far as practices like Homosexuality, the Bible is very clear as to how Jehovah feels about that, such things as polygamy served for a time for a specific purpose, which I will go into on tues.
I will also bring a Revelation book with me also, which is a verse by verse explanation of ther book of Revelation, which was written by men, but they use the bible to explain itself, its not what they think it should say.
if you have read the proclaimers book, you will see that they openly mention the fact that on numerous occasions they have been in error as to certain passages of the bible, even the bible mentions some of God's people were prone to be in error also, but thes doesn't mean that they were not speaking the truth or that they were wrong, it just means that they as well as we are imperfect, it speaks volumes for the kind of God we worship that he would humble himself to use imperfect men to declare his message of salvation.
If a Homosexual person wanted to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses he or she would have to stop practicing Homosexuality in order to be acceptable to Jehovah.
Its interesting to me Lisa that you call child molestation disgusting( which it definately is even the bible condemns such practices), and yet Jehovah feels equally the same way about Homosexuality!
Whatcha all think? lisa
Clam

If you have read the Proclaimers book, you will see that they openly mention the fact that on numerous occasions they have been in error. . . but this doesn't mean that they were not speaking the truth or that they were wrong, it just means that they as well as we are imperfect
Classic Dub logic.
Lisa are you going over on Tuesday? She sounds like she would be a very hard nut to crack.
Inquisitor

Hi Lisa,
Something worth noting was that your correspondent said:
if you have read the proclaimers book, you will see that they openly mention the fact that on numerous occasions they have been in error as to certain passages of the bible, even the bible mentions some of God's people were prone to be in error also, but thes doesn't mean that they were not speaking the truth or that they were wrong
How can people be "in error" and yet are "speaking truth" or are not in the wrong? Evidently self-denial. Such leniency would not be extended to Christendom as their latest Kingdom News tract shows.
You made some good points about the Bible and sexuality. It seems thought that your JW is going to want to divert the discussion elsewhere (Paradisaic future? Apocalyptic future? Prophetic fulfilment?) based on the fact that she was gonna bring the Revelation book.
I personally wouldn't let a Dub get away with the diversion. It suggests a chink in the armor.
But were you asking us what we thought of your encounter? Or were you hoping for some ammunition re: Bible and homosexuality?
INQ
lisavegas420

Classic Dub logic.
Lisa are you going over on Tuesday? She sounds like she would be a very hard nut to crack.
She will be coming to my house for our ~~weakl~~y .....ummm...I mean weekly BS study.
But were you asking us what we thought of your encounter? Or were you hoping for some ammunition re: Bible and homosexuality

Yes...to both...your thoughts and some ammo
lisa
jwfacts

The bible is against homosexuality, so you can not hope to convince her otherwise.
if you have read the proclaimers book, you will see that they openly mention the fact that on numerous occasions they have been in error as to certain passages of the bible, even the bible mentions some of God's people were prone to be in error also, but thes doesn't mean that they were not speaking the truth or that they were wrong, it just means that they as well as we are imperfect, it speaks volumes for the kind of God we worship that he would humble himself to use imperfect men to declare his message of salvation.
This is such contradictory comments, yet exactly what the Watchtower says. To anyone but a JW it is quite obvious that by definition you can not claim to be speaking under the direction of holy spirit, but not inspired. See http://jwfacts.com/index_files/holyspirit.htm for some info to help you with this. This is what you should discuss with her. How can a the organization constantly promote wrong doctrine but claim to have Gods direction. Was Jehovah able to direct his people to write the Bible without error? So if the WTS is God's organization why does he not direct them without error today?
jwfacts

http://www.gayxjw.org/bible.html has a great article to explain that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality, but I do not think you could convinve a JW with this reasoning.
lisavegas420

This is what I've got so far:

You wrote: "if you have read the proclaimers book, you will see that they openly mention the fact that on numerous occasions they have been in error as to certain passages of the bible, even the bible mentions some of God's people were prone to be in error also, but thes doesn't mean that they were not speaking the truth or that they were wrong, it just means that they as well as we are imperfect, it speaks volumes for the kind of God we worship that he would humble himself to use imperfect men to declare his message of salvation." Error: a) an act involving an unintentional deviation from truth or accuracy. b)belief in something untrue; the holding of mistaken opinions. c) the condition of believing what is not true. Synonyms: a mistake , means a departure from what is true, right, or proper. Implies misconception. To identify wrongly. How can a "mistake"...an "error" not be "wrong"? Deuteronomy 18:20-22 makes absolutely NO provision for manmade mistakes.
thank you all for your help. jwfacts...I will try to figure out how to get your questions in there.
Was Jehovah able to direct his people to write the Bible without error? So if the WTS is God's organization why does he not direct them without error today?
excellent questions. lisa
Inquisitor

The bible is against homosexuality so you can not hope to convince her otherwise. - jwfacts

I disagree. The Bible does not have a clear-cut position on homosexuality. The archaic laws against "man lying with man" are written alongside laws discriminating women, advocating slavery, and brutal punishment of blasphemers. Lisa already knows the problem with the Sodom story. The best we can cling on to is merely Pauline opinion. And even that can be challenged.
INQ
lisavegas420

2nd half of email...adding this to what I have above:
On the other hand, infallible means absolutely trustworthy or sure. Unfailing in effectiveness; certain. Immune from fallacy or error. All humans are imperfect but if you believe in the bible, then you accept that God has always used imperfect humans. If Jehovah in the past inspired the leaders to write perfect laws in the infallible bible, and is still directing his people today, then these directions are inspired and so must also be infallible. If they are not infallible then they are not being directed by Jehovah as the early Christian bible writers were. The bible writers were not infallible they were inspired, so everything they wrote in the bible was infallible. It is a contradiction to say that Jehovah similarly guides interpretations today yet they make mistakes.
lisa
Frank75

No need to to touch that last one. It is like....."There are known, knowns and there are unknown knowns that are known by some and unknown by others. So that these unknown, knowns and the known........" well you get the picture.
Paul spoke from his opinion of what is obviously the "sin" of men lying with men and women "inflamed with lust" yaddah yaddah. However the context clearly identifies and equates lies and liars with those so called "sins".
Prove one, yes just one lie from the JW leadership and they are demonstrably as "wicked" as men who "lie with men." (Homosexuality being pervasive in nature and therefore "natural" cannot be what Paul is specifically referring to in regards to unatural practices such as men laying with men)
However you can scripturally argue the whole Sodom and Gomorrah question by simply reading with her two scriptures.
(Lamentations 4:6) 6 The [punishment for the] error of the daughter of my people also becomes greater than the [punishment for the] sin of Sod´om, Which was overthrown as in a moment, and to which no hands turned [helpfully].
(Ezekiel 16:49-50) 49 Look! This is what proved to be the error of Sod´om your sister: Pride, sufficiency of bread and the carefreeness of keeping undisturbed were what happened to belong to her and her dependent towns, and the hand of the afflicted one and the poor one she did not strengthen.50 And they continued to be haughty and to carry on a detestable thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw [fit].
It is hard to imagine that Sodom was a city of sex mad "raging" Homosexuals anymore than the Jews who went into exile after Lamentations was written. Yet their sin is described as "greater" than that of Sodom.
If there was any question as to why it was believed that God destroyed those cities, the book of Ezekiel clears it up nicely. Pride and arrogance being their downfall. Sound like anyone we know?
On the subject, how exactly would one describe the WT treatment of disfellowshipped persons? Perhaps a failure to "strengthen the hands of the afflicted one"? If the glove fits?
The scripture in Ezekiel will blow her away by the way. Also the reference to "detestable thing" is not sex but so called "false worship of images" as discussed in the Aid Book, Insight Book and several WT articles.
Food for thought.
Frank75

Homosexuality and the Bible

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