Born Gay?

by Sam87 67 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Abaddon

  Qcmbr

  You know I find it hysterical you essentially accuse gay people of lying about being attracted to others of the same gender from an early age, and then expect us to believe YOU suceed in controlling your sexual desires (down to the point of not ever reacting to another woman as though she were a woman in any way since mariage) when it is known that even in cloistered communities of religious devotees sexual negation is the hardest thing.

  It's also funny you ignore the point I was making about fact vs opinion. With me I have facts behind my opinions. I think something because of x, y and quite possibly z. I may still be wrong. You seem to use an alternative paradigm, where you seem to select what facts to accept based upon a preconceived opinion.

  I ask about your parent's attitudes towards sex and sex education as you seem to have had no childhood sex education to speak of and not to have had the first idea about sex as a teen; you try to compare this totally unneccesary situation and its resultant confusion with someone being unsure about their sexuality. Apples and pears mate; someone can have an encyclopdeic knowledge of sex in today's society and STILL find accepting their sexuality difficult, often due to the reactions of those around them.

  Shame on you Abaddon - are you actually agreeing that one can choose how one is!!!??? I thought your basic premise is that it doesn't matter what one's beliefs are - reality will overrule them. Anyhow I never mentioned religion till now - you are dangerously close to revealing your driving bias against religion rather than staying on topic. My belief in human origins isn't anything to do with this and I doubt you actually know what my beliefs actually are. I'll get over things when I choose not when prodded by pedants.

  If you deal with a Nazi who hates Jews you have to consider whether he hates Jews because he is a Nazi, even if he tries to make-out he has a decent reason for it. If you deal with someone in a religious group that is opposed to homosexuality you have to consider whether they are opposed to homosexuals due to their religious beliefs even if they make out they have a decent reason for it.

  You also have to consider that someonewho presents as having a conflicted attitude towards sex and who still makes childish noises about his parent's sex life is probably not the most balanced person in the world when it comes to opinions on the subject.

  Of course, the above would be over-ruled if you had some vast tidal wave of spell-binding factual demonstration of your views, but your views are those of someone who had a retarded sexual development who then bases their views on sex on religious diktat rather than objective study. Or will you deny your faith influences your beliefs? Your argument is opinion lead, not fact lead, and your 'facts' are loose linkages at best that ignore inconvenient historical fact.

  You ask me for facts to back genetic determination up when I correct your overstatements by saying we just don't have enough information to know yet. For a start, my previous posts already provide such data and do not state the conclusion is absolute. Please, do not make it sound like I do not think choice has any role; wharping my argument is either lazy or dishonest.

  You ask about sexual attraction; actually sexual attraction is very genetically based. In societies where skinny women are seen as most beautiful those with a hip:waist ratio of 0.7 are seen as most attractive. In a soceity where heavier women are sen as attractive those with a hip:waist ratio of 0.7 are seen as most attractive. Women with an obvious waist are more fertile than those without. What we see is exactly what we would expect according to evolutonary theory.

  Men are attracted to the most fertile women, as they have inherited that attraction from their ancestors, as the human males attracted to women with pronounced waists had more offspring than those who were attracted to a woman regardless of her waist.

  There's an awful lot more proof of naturalistic evolution in human sexual biology, be it in the size and form of human male penises or in the size of male tetes, or in the 'hidden ovulation' of human females, but that's just an aside.

  Qcmbr , if urges do not result in harm to uninvolved parties, why are they wrong?

  If you ignore all else, answer this one...

  Ah good point - since your critical reading skills are shot I'll clarify - my whole post is driving at the point that we are responsible for who we are - I am more than happy for people to politely disagree with that opinion. I made a good statement that actually stands well alone outside of any sexual arena.

  You make a statement that no one has disagreed with; please find someone saying on this thread that people are not are responsible for who we are. Why are you trying to oppose something no one has argued? Is the actual discussion we ARE having too difficult?

  You also, despite me asking you to answer it if nothing else, evade answering a simple question;

  If urges do not result in harm to uninvolved parties, why are they wrong?

  There it is again...

  Forscher

  For instance, it is known that boys who are molested in childhood have a higher chance of being Gay than those who are not.

  Can you provide the research on this please? I know well that child molesters (I'm sure you realise that this is not synominous with homosexual) are more likey to have been sexually molested as a child than the average. This is often presented on religious-predicated anti-gay websites as 'if you're sexually molested as a child you are more likely to be gay', but they are mixing two different things up.

  It's a pity you're unwilling to detail what part of the evidence regarding homosexual behaviour in animals you find problematic. Not exactly an elegent argument... but angels fear to tread and all that...

  It would also be good to add that some will believe that homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice for equally unpalatable reasons as the ones you cite in you implied criticism of those who disagree with that particular lifestyle Abaddon.

  I think you must realise my main criticism is the method some people arive at a conclusion. To me it is akin to ignoring the human rights issue of human sacrifice because you worship Quetzalcoatl

  I think the important thing to realise is that the evidence is not compelling enough to make the assertion that Gayness is something folks are "born with," as many claim.

  Many? Not me. Not anyone on this thread. Not any of the research I've quoted. 'Many' say it's probably a complex interaction between genetics, pre-natal environment, pre-pubescent, pubescent , and post-pubescent environment. It seems the religously predicated lobby (not you) are the ones who often object to the very idea it COULD be influenced by things a person has no control over, for the reasons I've given.

  All the best.
• 

  aniron

  I was watching a program about sex the other night. They discussed why people went down certain ways in their sexual outlook.

  The comment about being gay was that it is now generally accepted that "Environment and Experience" are the two biggest factors in a person becoming gay.
• 

  Gretchen956

  Here's a controversial new study about sexual orientation within animals, which could prove that being gay is biologically based. Controversial because it could lead to a "cure" and most gays don't want to be cured. In light of the previous discussion on this thread, I thought I would throw this out there. I thought it was very interesting.

  http://www.ohsu.edu/news/2004/030504sheep.html

  Sherry
• 

  kid-A

  There is now overwhelming evidence, particularly from the field of neuroscience and neuroendocrinology demonstrating unequivocally the strong biological, inborn basis for sexual orientation. This evidence has been demonstrated behaviourally, through imaging and detailed morphological and cytological investigations both in humans and other animals.

  Qcmbr, once again you have demonstrated brilliantly that you are as ignorant as you are bigoted. This is not particularly surprising given that you received your science education from the book of mormon (the fictional testimony of jesus christ) and the latter-day ignoramuses. Next time, do some research before spouting off a load of horseshit about subject matter you neither understand nor are even remotely aware of.

  Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2006 May 23;103(21):8269-74. Epub 2006 May 16.

  Brain response to putative pheromones in lesbian women.

  • Berglund H ,
  • Lindstrom P ,
  • Savic I .

  Department of Medicine, and Stockholm Brain Institute, Karolinska University Hospital, Karolinska Institutet, 171 76 Stockholm, Sweden.

  The progesterone derivative 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like steroid estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST) are candidate compounds for human pheromones. In previous positron emission tomography studies, we found that smelling AND and EST activated regions primarily incorporating the sexually dimorphic nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus, that this activation was differentiated with respect to sex and compound, and that homosexual men processed AND congruently with heterosexual women rather than heterosexual men. These observations indicate involvement of the anterior hypothalamus in physiological processes related to sexual orientation in humans. We expand the information on this issue in the present study by performing identical positron emission tomography experiments on 12 lesbian women. In contrast to heterosexual women, lesbian women processed AND stimuli by the olfactory networks and not the anterior hypothalamus. Furthermore, when smelling EST, they partly shared activation of the anterior hypothalamus with heterosexual men. These data support our previous results about differentiated processing of pheromone-like stimuli in humans and further strengthen the notion of a coupling between hypothalamic neuronal circuits and sexual preferences.

  Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2005 May 17;102(20):7356-61. Epub 2005 May 9.

  Brain response to putative pheromones in homosexual men.

  • Savic I ,
  • Berglund H ,
  • Lindstrom P .

  Department of Clinical Neuroscience, Karolinska University Hospital, 171 76 Stockholm, Sweden. [email protected]

  The testosterone derivative 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like steroid estra-1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST) are candidate compounds for human pheromones. AND is detected primarily in male sweat, whereas EST has been found in female urine. In a previous positron emission tomography study, we found that smelling AND and EST activated regions covering sexually dimorphic nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus, and that this activation was differentiated with respect to sex and compound. In the present study, the pattern of activation induced by AND and EST was compared among homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. In contrast to heterosexual men, and in congruence with heterosexual women, homosexual men displayed hypothalamic activation in response to AND. Maximal activation was observed in the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus, which, according to animal studies, is highly involved in sexual behavior. As opposed to putative pheromones, common odors were processed similarly in all three groups of subjects and engaged only the olfactory brain (amygdala, piriform, orbitofrontal, and insular cortex). These findings show that our brain reacts differently to the two putative pheromones compared with common odors, and suggest a link between sexual orientation and hypothalamic neuronal processes.

  Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1992 Aug 1;89(15):7199-202.

  Sexual orientation and the size of the anterior commissure in the human brain.

  • Allen LS ,
  • Gorski RA .

  Department of Anatomy and Cell Biology, University of California, Los Angeles 90024.

  The anterior commissure, a fiber tract that is larger in its midsagittal area in women than in men, was examined in 90 postmortem brains from homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. The midsagittal plane of the anterior commissure in homosexual men was 18% larger than in heterosexual women and 34% larger than in heterosexual men. This anatomical difference, which correlates with gender and sexual orientation, may, in part, underlie differences in cognitive function and cerebral lateralization among homosexual men, heterosexual men, and heterosexual women. Moreover, this finding of a difference in a structure not known to be related to reproductive functions supports the hypothesis that factors operating early in development differentiate sexually dimorphic structures and functions of the brain, including the anterior commissure and sexual orientation, in a global fashion.

  1: Arch Sex Behav. 1995 Dec;24(6):585-93. Links

  Cerebral laterality in homosexual males: preliminary communication using magnetoencephalography.

  • Reite M ,
  • Sheeder J ,
  • Richardson D ,
  • Teale P .

  Department of Psychiatry, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center, Denver 80262, USA.

  MEG-based auditory M100 source location in the left and right hemispheres of 8 strictly homosexual and 9 strictly heterosexual males were compared to determine if this measure of interhemispheric laterality varies as a function of sexual orientation. MEG fields evoked by auditory tone pips were recorded from left and right hemispheres in response to contralateral ear stimulation. The source of the 100-msec latency component, generated in the superior temporal gyrus, was estimated using a least squares inverse solution algorithm. Auditory sources in heterosexual men were significantly further anterior in the right hemisphere compared to the left hemisphere. Source locations in the homosexual men did not exhibit significant interhemispheric asymmetry, being similarly located in both hemispheres. Findings suggest an anatomic and/or functional difference in the superior temporal gyrus of at least some homosexual men.

  Horm Behav. 1995 Mar;29(1):31-41.

  A comparison of LH secretion and brain estradiol receptors in heterosexual and homosexual rams and female sheep.

  • Perkins A ,
  • Fitzgerald JA ,
  • Moss GE .

  Carroll College, Helena, Montana 59601, USA.

  This study examined endocrine components of sexual orientation of male sheep. Sexual orientation of adult rams was identified through standardized sexual performance tests. Four rams that copulated with ewes, four rams that never mounted females and copulated with males, and eight ewes were used in the experiments. Exogenous estradiol benzoate (50 micrograms, i.m.) stimulated (P < .05) a preovulatory-like LH surge 16-22 hr after administration to females. Estradiol did not (P > .05) affect LH release of heterosexual or homosexual rams. Thirty days after the estradiol challenge, sheep were euthanized and areas of the amygdala (AMY), hypothalamus (HYP), anterior pituitary (AP), and preoptic area (POA) of the hypothalamus were collected. Occupied and unoccupied content of estradiol receptors (ER) was determined. The content of ER in the amygdala of both homosexual rams and ewes was similar, but less than (P < .05) the content of ER in heterosexual rams. The ER content measured in other brain regions did not differ by sex or orientation. In summary, results from these data show that the preovulatory LH surge mechanism that is a characteristic of the female does not occur in either homosexual or heterosexual rams. Conversely, the ER content of the AMY of homosexual rams is similar to that of ewes and differs from the heterosexual male. Differences in ER content between heterosexual and homosexual rams imply that the amygdala serves as a link for input from potential mates. These data suggest that the amygdala not only plays a role in sexual behavior but may be involved in sexual orientation of rams.

  Curr Biol. 2006 Jan 10;16(1):63-8.

  Face perception is modulated by sexual preference.

  • Kranz F ,
  • Ishai A .

  Institute of Neuroradiology, University of Zurich, Zurich, Switzerland; Institute for Biomedical Engineering, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich, Switzerland.

  Face perception is mediated by a distributed neural system in the human brain . The response to faces is modulated by cognitive factors such as attention, visual imagery, and emotion ; however, the effects of gender and sexual orientation are currently unknown. We used fMRI to test whether subjects would respond more to their sexually preferred faces and predicted such modulation in the reward circuitry. Forty heterosexual and homosexual men and women viewed photographs of male and female faces and assessed facial attractiveness. Regardless of their gender and sexual orientation, all subjects similarly rated the attractiveness of both male and female faces. Within multiple, bilateral face-selective regions in the visual cortex, limbic system, and prefrontal cortex, similar patterns of activation were found in all subjects in response to both male and female faces. Consistent with our hypothesis, we found a significant interaction between stimulus gender and the sexual preference of the subject in the thalamus and medial orbitofrontal cortex, where heterosexual men and homosexual women responded more to female faces and heterosexual women and homosexual men responded more to male faces. Our findings suggest that sexual preference modulates face-evoked activation in the reward circuitry.

  Brain Res. 2004 Oct 22;1024(1-2):251-4.

  Differential brain activation in exclusively homosexual and heterosexual men produced by the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor, fluoxetine.

  • Kinnunen LH ,
  • Moltz H ,
  • Metz J ,
  • Cooper M .

  Committee on Human Development, University of Chicago, 5848 S. University Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637, USA. [email protected]

  A number of studies have shown a relationship between "sexual orientation" and size of various brain nuclei. We hypothesized that neurotransmitter differences might parallel neuroanatomical differences in the hypothalamus. We administered 40 mg of fluoxetine as a challenge to the serotonergic systems of exclusively homosexual and exclusively heterosexual men and measured cerebral metabolic changes with fluorodeoxyglucose positron emission tomography (FDG-PET). The metabolic differences we observed might reflect underlying neurochemical differences between homosexual and heterosexual men.

  Science. 1991 Aug 30;253(5023):1034-7.

  Comment in:

  Science. 1991 Nov 1;254(5032):630.

  A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men.

  • LeVay S .

  Salk Institute for Biological Studies, San Diego, CA 92186.

  The anterior hypothalamus of the brain participates in the regulation of male-typical sexual behavior. The volumes of four cell groups in this region [interstitial nuclei of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH) 1, 2, 3, and 4] were measured in postmortem tissue from three subject groups: women, men who were presumed to be heterosexual, and homosexual men. No differences were found between the groups in the volumes of INAH 1, 2, or 4. As has been reported previously, INAH 3 was more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the women. It was also, however, more than twice as large in the heterosexual men as in the homosexual men. This finding indicates that INAH is dimorphic with sexual orientation, at least in men, and suggests that sexual orientation has a biological substrate.
• 

  Gretchen956

  Kid, please don't confuse us with facts!
• 

  SixofNine

  For those of us at either end of the kinsey scale, it's pretty goddamned obvious that sexual orientation is 99% genetics.

  It's you fricken bi-sexuals (most of humanity) that confuse things.

  Can I get a hell-yeah from my fellow 1's and 6's?
• 

  zeroday

  Can I get a hell-yeah from my fellow 1's and 6's?

  Ok I'm new here what is a 1 and 6 please.
• 

  Forscher

  Hello Abaddon,

  Can you provide the research on this please? I know well that child molesters (I'm sure you realise that this is not synominous with homosexual) are more likey to have been sexually molested as a child than the average. This is often presented on religious-predicated anti-gay websites as 'if you're sexually molested as a child you are more likely to be gay', but they are mixing two different things up.

  Fair enough, but one problem is that my books are still packed away. I would give the names of all the Psychiatrists and Psychologists who also told myself, my wife, and my son (who had been molested by a man) as much through the years, but then it wouldn't be hard for folks to ID me if I did that. All that talk on the part of many well-meaning doctors had my son questioning his own sexuality, something which brought both him and our family much pain as he agonized over the question. NONE of those folks were "religious" or "anti-gay," so I think me can trust that opinion from three doctors of Psychiatry and as many Ph.D.s in Psychology.

  Forscher