Why would God speak in symbols if he really wanted us to understand? (page 2)

Narkissos

DD,

I believe the bible speaks very clearly for the most part.

Perhaps because the Bible is not that religious (or "spiritual") after all...

Also, whatever sounds clear (and generally pertains to topics which have only a fringe connection with religion, such as ethics) is often just as clearly contradicted elsewhere.

When the Bible texts happen to deal with theology in the strictest sense ("who/what is God"), which is pretty rare after all, they naturally become ambiguous and obscure. Many Bible features (such as the prohibition of divine images, Yhwh inhabiting darkness, his voice as the sound of silence in the OT) clearly (!) point to this essential obscurity. The Johannine literature which is the most theologically audacious (daring to say what God is) culminates in metaphors (God is "spirit," "light" or "love") and is full of intended misunderstandings... Cf. also the Gospel parables, which, in spite of the secondary allegorical "interpretations," are said to be designed so as to be misunderstood (at least by outsiders).

its not just "religious speech", Bill Clinton for example, claims the word "is" contains ambiguity.

Not being American I'm afraid I miss your allusion, but out of context I certainly agree. "To be" (which Derrida said is the only non-metaphorical word in the lexicon -- and I'm not sure it is really metaphor-free) is a highly ambiguous word and notion. In the middle-ages Duns Scot devoted an entire treaty to the "univocity (vs. plurivocity) of being"... Would you say your mind isin the same sense a rock or a tree is? What about God, or the devil, or a fictional character in a book? Your definition of "being" will probably vary according to the "object".

KAYTEE

rebel8

but the good people can figure it out just fine

Why could'nt they figure out all things they have got wrong over many decades,Who is the good

KT

proplog2

Narkissos:

Are you familiar with the concept of E-Prime? Where they attempt to eliminate the use of "to be".

proplog2

The answer is simple. If there were a God (omnipotent, omnicient etc.) he would speak plainly to be understood. Therefore...

< there is no God>

or

freetosee

south african beef

Yes I totally agree with others on this thread in asking why the Bible and religion in general is all so complicated and diverse?

If there were only one way of worshipping god which would be acceptable to him, wouldn't he make it abundantly clear which way it was?

Also, many millions, possibly billions of people worldwide slavishly follow the religion they are born into and there is no way that they are going to change due to the fanatacism and cultural pressure of it all, and don't tell me that god calls the honest hearted ones and those calling out to him because if that's the case then there are not many honest hearted ones around.

aSphereisnotaCircle

I agree with you rebel, what kind of loving god is that?

I have sometimes thought that if I ever run my own company or organisation, it might be quite fun to form the organisation rules and/or employee contracts in pseudo-biblical symbolic language. Then I could have fun visiting the people with various pestillences and smitings if they failed to comply with the ambiguous/unintelligable rules.

Ah Iggy, this is too funny,

blondie

The WTS gives themselves this out on understanding prophecies:

*** w04 2/1 p. 21 par. 13 "The Scene of This World Is Changing" ***

Since Bible prophecies are often fully understood only after they are fulfilled or are in the process of fulfillment, we will have to wait and see.

***

w003/15p.13par.12‘OGod,SendOutYourLight’***

Just as the apostles understood many prophecies concerning the Messiah only after Jesus’ death and resurrection, Christians today understand Bible prophecy in its finest detail only after it has been fulfilled.

*** w97 8/15 p. 16 par. 15 Living for Today or for an Eternal Future? ***

As events develop, though, our understanding of prophecy has become clearer. History shows that rarely, if ever, are divine prophecies fully understood before their fulfillment.

Makes you wonder what a "prophecy" is?

Blondie

ESTEE

rebel wrote:

Neale Donald Walsh is a favorite books of mine, it really points out that the Divine would need nothing from us, not worship, not acknowledgement, not anything. . . . Humans wrote in mystery and symbols because they imagined that was the way God was. I am with you, there is no need for the mystery when the mumbo jumbo is cleared away.

I've wondered this, too. I have read some of these types of books, rebel. I agree with this line of thought and it suits me because it is "gentle" and I have been able to let go of the horrible fear of demons that the jws instilled in me since birth. Until I could let go of the jws fear-based thinking I felt like I had enclosed myself in a tight little box where I could no longer move. I was suffocating. I was so afraid of becoming "demonized". If I left the tight little jw box, I'd be wide open to demon attack. But seriously, isn't that what the society teaches? As if the jws know anything about the spirit world, when they won't even admit that we all have helpful spirit guides. The fear-based belief about demons was just another "control mechanism" in my opinion.There is an enormous amount of healing to be done after leaving the borg. But the healing is entirely possible. I will spend the rest of my life proving that to be true, by first allowing myself to heal from those "religious belief" wounds.

balsam wrote:

Satan is supposed to be the great deciever not god.

That is what the borg would have us believe. But now I believe, we all have "devils" or "demons" to face, but these are of our own allowance or creation, for the lessons that come with these challenges. My biggest "demons" to face were the jw beliefs I had taken on from birth. When my soul came to this planet and it chose my jw parents (so I could become brainwashed), I believe my soul was setting me up for the "purpose of my being" . . . namely, to find a way to heal these beliefs. It is do-able, I believe. I am now in the process.

Once I realized how dangerous the jw religious belief structure was, I became determined to rip out all parts of the jw belief system and rebuild a new belief system that suited me and supported me---from scratch. Then I could set out to rebuild my life. For me it was a very long process . . . I started intensive therapy in 1997, but had already received some therapy in Lethbridge from about 1990, after my father died. So this is 16 years later. I am thinking I'd like to "fast track" the healing process. Using energy work, I believe the healing process could be much faster. I've talked to Dawn (my energy teacher who is a Reiki Master). She agrees and thinks its certainly possible. I acknowledge the path I have taken to get to this point and I've recorded everything in my journals. My goal is to produce a Workbook to help others who are willing to do their healing work. I want to help others who desire to be truly free of the jw fear-based belief structure!!! I really think the first step is to get some good counselling, however. Until that happens, many exjws are simply too afraid of the concept of energy work.

For what its worth, I believe God won't speak to us directly because we would s**t ourselves, because of our past fears around that whole concept.

With all due respect, I speak from experience.

ESTEE

startingover

Freetosee,

So you have a link for that info you posted? I think it's a great resume of the sitation.

Why would God speak in symbols if he really wanted us to understand?

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