Maybe There's a Heaven...

by LittleToe 141 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Kristofer

  LittleToe, You are so articulate! The words you have expressed have come across so genuine and with so much heart. I'm floored!!
• 

  Princess

  For several years after I left the JWs, I felt as though I were at sea, with no reference points and no stability about if or what I believed. I was listening and my heart was open. Yet, I never received any kind of indication that Christ was out there reaching out to me -- no epiphany, no sign, no nothing. My question is how do you account for the fact that Christ appears to pick and choose whom he reveals himself to? I'm not looking to disparage your experience; I really would like to know.

  I have asked the same question. I personally am not a believer, but my husband is. At least he was. He spent years after leaving the WTS trying to get an answer...to no avail. He was just quoting one of his favorite lines from a movie last night. Steve Buscimi in The Island when asked what god was. "You know when you want something really bad and you close your eyes and ask for it? God is the guy who ignores you."

  I'm happy that you have found peace in your experience.
• 

  hillary_step

  Ross,

  During the course of these last few years I've been to a couple of Charismatic services. They aren't really my cup of tea. To my mind they are mostly froth and a working up of an ecstatic experience. I've enjoyed it, for sure, but it has a completely different texture to what I'm vainly attempting to describe in this thread. Having seen footage of the ecstatic experiences of some other faith-groups I would suggest that there are broad similarities. Fascinating, for sure, and I assume this was what you were getting at, Hillary?

  Yes, that is what I am seeking to explore.

  Imagine if the religious experience could be measured by some standard. Would the emotional and physical effect of the Christian experience be similar to the purveyor of Voudo for example? From my own research, the explanation of what *seems* to be a common experience by these persons appear to give rise to very similar physical and psychological reactions, the differences revolving around the persons particular religious affiliation and being strained through a mesh of their own personal religious environment. As you know, religious ecstacies go back to the most primitive of societies and cross every belief system, social and anti-social.

  You note that you feel your own experience was of a 'completely different texture' to some of the charismatics you have encountered, but in that case how do you think they differed? You knew I was going to ask that did you not.

  Take care - HS
• 

  LittleToe

  Parakeet/Princess:

  For several years after I left the JWs, I felt as though I were at sea, with no reference points and no stability about if or what I believed. I was listening and my heart was open. Yet, I never received any kind of indication that Christ was out there reaching out to me -- no epiphany, no sign, no nothing. My question is how do you account for the fact that Christ appears to pick and choose whom he reveals himself to? I'm not looking to disparage your experience; I really would like to know.

  I'd love to say that I was the Messiah and had all the answers, but all I am is a very naughty boy ("Life of Brian", Monty Python)

  The only suggestion that comes immediately to mind is that you had the desire to reach out. I've seen your interactions on this board and know that you love people. What makes you think you haven't already received your answer in the midst of the silence? Sometimes the best answers are merely a hearing ear {{{hugs}}}

  Look within to see without...

  Hillary:Yes, I expected further enquiry.

  The simplest way I can express it is that certain spiritual experiences may be accompanied by certain consistent sensations. They are similar to other sensations, hence the use of that particular vocabulary (e.g. love, peace, joy, etc.) but the texture is altered. Since we have a limited number sensory perceptions and accompanying neurons, that may go way to explaining this. It may well be that the subjective interpretation is not what is actually going on at all, but since the response is similar it allows "believers" an opportunity to create a common frame of reference.

  When I talk about being flooded with joy during an ecstatic experience I know that I'm understood by someone who has experienced something similar. If I were to attempt to describe how it was subtly different to the joy I might otherwise experience due to a secular achievement, there would likely be a similar nod of understanding. I'm here sticking to the area you're interested in, though I have to confess that I tend to avoid such experiences because they tend to be short-lived and overwhelming, leading me to a concern that they may have more to do with endorphins than "spirit". But even in this, who am I to judge anothers' experience and preference?

  An area that is of more interest to me is why a certain sensation should consistently accompany a desire to pray for someone far away, with a result that through the experience of hindsight I can now come to expect. With one sensation I can expect the result to be death, and with another sensation I can expect to shortly be overwhelmed with an empathic coordination with their innermost emotions (which sux when it's grief), and so on. These are not self generated, as I have experienced being woken in the middle of the night by such things, driving along a road, or being in the middle of a conversation when it occurs. Thus I have no way of providing evidence that could be subjected to scientific rigour.

  I accept that there are other frameworks that people use to explain such phenomena. I don't expect any of the foregoing to be blindly accepted as fact, but it certainly is freaky (or maybe I am). I'll look out for the rainbow coloured leaves, next time, just for KK's sake

  As an answer to most everyone's question: the "why" eludes me, too! The most satisfying answer that I've thusfar heard is that it strengthens faith in the impossible. Maybe there's no real requirement for everyone to be blessed with such a "curse" / cursed with such a "blessing"

  I'm interested in the comments of those who expressed that they wouldn't like to have a spiritual experience. I'm wondering whether this is because it might shake their world-view, and they are concerned they might not cope. Feel free to answer, guys...
• 

  proplog2

  Little Toe:

  I read your response to what I wrote and I think you misunderstood me. I was not saying that your experience of great love for the lord was like cutting your penis off. I was saying that it bewilders me how anyone could actually come to the decision of something as radical as a sex change - yet people do those kinds of things. I'm not criticizing sex-change surgery but I think it is pretty serious business.

  So if this extreme phenomenon can take place what is so strange about conversion experiences. It appears a lot of people have them.

  As far as propriety. Isn't the word "stuffy" paired with it. This IS an open discussion. It is NOT some 19th century reading room.
• 

  LittleToe

  Proplog:
  You're getting boring.

  I never denigrated your comments, but did highlight that the consensus seemed to be that they lacked taste, by my "propriety" comment. Now you can argue till your blue in the face that you meant this and didn't mean that, but it wasn't I that addressed you, so go take your concerns elsewhere.

  As for "stuffy", surely that's permissible as I'm a Brit? Don't y'all generalise us that way when your imagination runs out?
• 

  bikerchic

  Little Toe:

  I read your response to what I wrote and I think you misunderstood me. I was not saying that your experience of great love for the lord was like cutting your penis off. I was saying that it bewilders me how anyone could actually come to the decision of something as radical as a sex change - yet people do those kinds of things. I'm not criticizing sex-change surgery but I think it is pretty serious business.

  So if this extreme phenomenon can take place what is so strange about conversion experiences. It appears a lot of people have them.

  Ross is having a sex change operation?
• 

  toreador

  I think I understand what propolog is saying. Many different feelings come over people and there seems to be no logical way of understanding some of them. The feelings you describe Ross, may seem real to you as coming from Jesus/ God but when one compares it to other feelings experienced by people of the same nature they would certainly not be coming from God such as the heartfelt desire to cut ones penis off and make it into a vagina but the urge to do may seem real. HS made some very good points as to praticers of Voodoo. ;)

  I am interested in reading more of your experiences in the hopes of learning more. Ross, I have a Roman Catholic friend who I believe has simliar experiences to yours but some of the things she says has me wondering how they could come from God. I certainly mean no disrespect and I hope you will you take none. I certainly envy you in many respects. I too prayed fervently after leaving the JW's really feeling for some time that God had led me out of the JW's. Nothing ever came of it tho.

  Tor
• 

  LittleToe

  Toreador:Other than my last comments to Hillary, I've not expressed myself about my experiences, and really have no desire to do so (the reasons should be fairly obvious by now). I've only elaborated on some of the "feelings" that stemmed from them.

  Here is where I think folks have it arse-about-tit. They listen to all these stories about experiences and start wanting them themselves, and get disillusioned when they don't transpire. As with most things spiritual it works the other way around. You keep an open mind and the experience finds you. You then have something unique (with only elements of commonality) with which to discuss with others. As one wise old divine put it: if I hear two "conversions" that are exactly the same then one of them is lying...

  Therein lays another objection to my writing about my experiences. Why feed anothers' desire to chase something that only "accompanies" that which is the whole point of the exercise. Digestion happens, and it might be a remarkable thing to hear your stomach gurgle for the first time, but the whole point is to eat and get nourished, not to listen to the noises of your digestive tract

  I do accept Proplogs point about hanging onto a conversion experience and not remaining open to what the future may bring, or a variety of explanations for it. My first experience almost paled into insignificance compared to the things that have continued to occur through the years. Hence I state that I continue to have a living relationship.

  Kate:
  Allegedly
• 

  Big Tex

  Kate:
  Allegedly

  >rifles through old kilt photos<

  Therein lays another objection to my writing about my experiences

  I understand, even though I am not allowed your spiritual access.

  It's a bit like revealing a part of yourself, isn't it? I've been very fortunate in that harsh or knee-jerk responses to my experiences have been kept to a minimum. Sometimes I wonder if that's the luck of the draw. Other times I think it might have more to do with the audience.

  I understand your reluctance, and I certainly do not want to intrude, but I do think you've got something to offer.