Great crowd in the first century ?

ninja

Are there any watchtower references to there being any members of the great crowd in the first century?...or were they all of the "144000" until 1935? ...

fullofdoubtnow

I've never heard of any. I think all first - century christians were classed as anointed by the wts.

If you have the watchtower library....look at the 1951 sept 1st watchtower...the article is "hated for this name".....*** w51 9/1 p. 518 Hated for His Name *** Diocletian assumed the crown A.D. 284. At first he seemed friendly to the Christians, but in the year 303 he gave in to persuasion and opened the tenth persecution, probably the most ferocious of all. Suffocation by smoke, forcible drinking of melted lead, mass drownings and burnings, breaking on the rack of men and women alike ran the empire with blood. In a single month 17,000 were slain. In the province of Egypt alone, 144,000 such professed Christians died by violence in the course of this persecution, in addition to another 700,000 who died as a result of fatigues encountered in banishment or under enforced public works. According to this the 144000 were filled up well before 1935!!!

garybuss

By definition the "great crowd" can only live in the last century and in the last minutes up to Armageddon because they are the survivors who live through Armageddon.

Bonnie_Clyde

I remember the expression, "Great Crowd of Other Sheep." As Gary Buss stated, the Great Crowd are limited to the 20th century, but the Other Sheep would encompass all non-anointed Christians including the Great Crowd but could go back over the centuries and include the "men of old" before the time of Christ. I remember this explanation although it does seem to conflict with the idea that all Christians from 33 CE forward were of the the anointed until 1935.

Narkissos

the Great Crowd are limited to the 20th century, but the Other Sheep would encompass all non-anointed Christians including the Great Crowd but could go back over the centuries and include the "men of old" before the time of Christ.

You're right about the difference between "Other Sheep" and "Great Crowd" in WT terminology, but afaik the WT never hinted to the existence of "non-anointed Christians" before the 20th century. The "men of old" (down to John the Baptist) did not qualify as Christians, and in the Christian era down to the 1930s there were only "anointed Christians" and "professed Christians" (i.e. actually not Christian at all) by the WT standards.

OnTheWayOut

Yes, garybuss is right that the "Great Crowd" are survivors of the war of Armageddon, so your real question might be about the "other sheep."

Notice this quote:

***
rechap. 20 pp. 124-126 A Multitudinous Great Crowd***

17
From the time of the apostle John and on into the Lord’s day, anointed Christians were puzzled as to the identity of the great crowd. .....
18
During the 1920’s and early 1930’s, the John class had stressed the heavenly hope, both in the publications and in the preaching work. Apparently, the full number of the 144,000 had yet to be filled. But increasing numbers of those who heeded the message and who showed zeal in the witness work came to profess an interest in living forever on the Paradise earth. They had no desire to go to heaven. That was not their calling. They were no part of the little flock but rather of the other sheep. (Luke 12:32; John 10:16) Their being identified in 1935 as the great crowd of other sheep was an indication that the choosing of the 144,000 was then about complete.
19
Do statistics support this conclusion? Yes, they do. In 1938, worldwide, 59,047 witnesses of Jehovah shared in the ministry. Of these, 36,732 partook of the emblems at the annual celebration of the Memorial of Jesus’ death, thus indicating that they had a heavenly calling. In the years since then, the number of these partakers has progressively decreased, principally because faithful witnesses of Jehovah finished their earthly life course in death. In 1987 only 8,808 partook of the Memorial emblems—just 0.1 percent of the 8,965,221 attending that global observance.
21
The harvesting of God’s people during the Lord’s day has thus been in full harmony with John’s vision: first the work of gathering the remaining ones of the 144,000; then the gathering of the great crowd. As Isaiah prophesied, now "in the final part of the days," people of all nations are streaming to share in Jehovah’s pure worship. And, indeed, we exult in appreciation of Jehovah’s creation of "new heavens and a new earth." (Isaiah 2:2-4; 65:17, 18) God is gathering "all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth." (Ephesians 1:10) The anointed heirs of the heavenly Kingdom—chosen over the centuries since Jesus’ day—are "the things in the heavens." And now, the great crowd of the other sheep appear as initial ones of "the things on the earth." Your serving in harmony with that arrangement can mean eternal happiness for you.

It appears that WTS doctrine says that all those first-century Christians, and any others leading up to the 1930's, only add up to 100,000 anointed (or so). The "other sheep" and "great crowd" are interchangeable to us, even though technically, only those that survive Armageddon are "Great Crowd," because the WTS has been saying that millions now living will survive Armageddon. They wanted us to believe we are of the "Great Crowd" that will survive, and we will sell more magazines.
Looking into history, saying that there were less than 144,000 faithful believers since Jesus' death, is ridiculous.

Seeker4

One of the huge flaws in JW doctrine is this idea that from 33 CE to 1935, there were only 144,000 true Christians. If the recorded numbers of early Christians slaughtered by the Romans in just the first couple of hundred years of Christianity are anywhere near accurate, there were actually hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions!

The WTS has a really half-assed "explanation" for it (if I remember, they use a couple of quotes about how some of these hundreds of thousands of slaughtered Christians died, indicating that they were probably demonized or part of Christendom or some such tripe), but in reality, the literal 144,000 teaching of the Witnesses is absolutely unbelievable.

S4

rockhound

I found an interesting article on the subject of early Christians at the following site:

www.witnessinc.com/Topics/outnum/outnum.htm

These quotes represent the "hard numbers" of "Anointed believers" accounted for as of the memorial in 1935. The following gives the references for the numbers.

Year # of Christians Reference
33 C.E. 8000, WT, 9/1/81, p. 9 , Acts 4:4
95 C.E. 40,000 martyred WT, 9/1/51, p. 518
1935 C.E. 52,465 memorial partakers Proclaimers, p. 717

Thus there was space for only 43,535 believers from the year 33 C.E. to 1935 C.E., a period of 1902 years. By simple math this means there would only be 23 believers per year in the whole world. But, the 40,000 martyred in 95 were only a part of the whole, but what part? If we consider that by the year 199 C.E. there were, by Watchtower estimates, 3,000,000 "Christians," and the "millions of tombs" in the catacombs, there must have been a huge populous of Christians. Also, in the year 95 C.E. the last of the Apostles was still alive, so the "Church" was probably quite healthy, considering the tremendous success the Apostles had in spreading the message. The Watchtower admits that by mid first century there were converts in every province of the Roman empire.

However, the Watchtower has speculated about the number of Christians during various time periods, these must be accounted for. I have set these up in the following chart.

Year # of Christians Reference

64 C.E. "immense multitude" martyred WT, 11/15/64, p. 698
199 C.E. 3,000,000 "Christians" estimated WT, 4/15/63, p. 249
284 C.E. 861,000 "Christians" martyred WT, 3/15/57, p. 166
33-200 C.E. "millions of graves" in catacombs WT, 3/15/57, p. 166
36-46 C.E. "myraids of converts" by Paul WT, 7/15/57, p. 388
64 C.E. "Christianity prominent" in Rome WT 9/1/51, p. 516
33 C.E. "constantly increasing number" WT, 10/15/87, p. 24
64 C.E. "Thousands of Jewish believers" WT, 11/15/73, p. 687
33 C.E. "uncounted thousands" WT, 12/1/59, p. 718
235 C.E. "numberless Christian victims" WT, 9/1/51 p. 517

ROCKHOUND

Gordy

One of the huge flaws in JW doctrine is this idea that from 33 CE to 1935, there were only 144,000 true Christians. If the recorded numbers of early Christians slaughtered by the Romans in just the first couple of hundred years of Christianity are anywhere near accurate, there were actually hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions!

It was always a puzzle to me as well. Yet I remember reading one source of Christian history stating that it was estimated that by the end of the 2nd century, 2.5 million Christians had died from persecution by the Romans. It gave one figure of 144,000 killed in Alexandria.

When I've raised this with a JW the reply is that "They really weren't "real" Christians. They just professed to be"

So all those thousands of people who were killed in the arenas of Rome, tortured, used as human torches to light the gardens of Emperor Nero.

Where only pretending to be Christians.

Great crowd in the first century ?

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