double post sorry.............Auld said .... "these days you just about have to teach them their doctrines before you can explain why their doctrines aren't Scriptural."................AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH........even with the WT right in their hand they still swear "thats not what we teach" ...............
"These also I must bring..."John 10:16
by AuldSoul 36 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Mary
AuldSoul said: There are two reasons, one less blatant than the other. (1) The context shows he was talking to the Pharisees. (2) (the more blatant one) He was speaking to the disciples before Penetcost 33 CE.
I find this really insane that any Witness wouldn't question this. What difference could it possibly make as to what your eternal destination was, if Jesus spoke to the disciples before Pentacost of 33 CE?? Every statement he ever made to them about heavenly life was spoken before that time, because Jesus had already died by then.........
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M.J.
Another point regarding one hope. Here are a few verses,
(Ephesians 1:10-12) 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him, 11 in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels, 12 that we should serve for the praise of his glory, we who have been first to hope in the Christ.
(Eph 1:10, NIV) ...to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
(Revelation 21:2-3) 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them.
(2 Corinthians 6:16) . . .just as God said: "I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.". . .
In other words, there is a common hope, to dwell with God himself. Heaven and Earth will be as one. "New Jerusalem" (which the WTS interprets as members of the 144,000) will come to earth. The WTS, on the other hand, teaches that there will remain two separate realms, the physical and the non-physical, forever divided.
How does the WTS counter this idea?
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rsp.115par.2Earth***Does the fact that God will "reside" with mankind and "be with them" mean that he will become a fleshly Being? That cannot be, because Jehovah told Moses: "No man may see me and yet live." [Ex. 33:20] Consistently, then, the members of the New Jerusalem will not return to earth as physical beings. In what sense, then, could God "be with" mankind and how would the New Jerusalem ‘come down out of heaven’? No doubt an indication is found in Genesis 21:1, which says that God "visited" Sarah, blessing her with a son in her old age. Exodus 4:31 tells us that God "visited" Israel by sending Moses as a deliverer. Luke 7:16 says that by means of Jesus’ ministry God "visited" his people. [All from KJ and RS] Other translations use the expression God "turned his attention" to his people [NW] or ‘showed concern’ for them [NE]. So Revelation 21:2, 3 must mean that God will ‘visit,’ or be with, mankind by means of the heavenly New Jerusalem, through which blessings will come to obedient humans.
Weak! Their only defense is that no fallen human could see God way back in Exodus? How about this verse:
(Matthew 5:8) 8 "Happy are the pure in heart, since they will see God.
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TheListener
MJ,
It seems to me that the WTS article you quoted is arguing from a negative position. (i think?)
They are assuming that God being with his people means he would have to be on earth as a fleshly being. Wouldn't it fit more into the scriptures many have quoted on this thread that his walking with his people would occur in a spiritual setting, free from the bondage to our physical body? Wasn't it Paul who discussed being free from our physical bodies to be with Christ and God?
I have often wondered about this:
As a dub I always read the OT scriptures that discussed the paradise earth. I always applied those scriptures to the future of mankind. The reason I recall was that the promised land did not fulfill those prophecies so they must still have a future fulfillment.
I never thought of this as a dub but I have since. Why couldn't those scriptures have a spiritual fulfillment? Why must it be physical for physical. Why couldn't it be physical pointing to the better, more perfect, spiritual?
There must be examples in the OT of prophecies which used physical things to discuss spiritual things. The Holy and Most Holy comes to mind, as do the sacrifices. I'm sure there are more.
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M.J.
I think that part of the problem is reading too much into "spiritual" vs. "physical". I don't think the Bible makes a practical distinction with respect to the hope & promises. The exact substance of the setting or the make-up and mode of existence in a "spiritual body" is not so much the topic of discussion as is the promise of eternal life and forever being with God in a paradise. The WTS gets hung up on whether or not God will be "fleshly". That isn't even part of the question. The question is whether or not he will be with us and will we see him. Some theologians speculate that perhaps since the fall the physical dimension is blind to the spiritual...and perhaps when things are restored the barriers between them will be broken.
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TheListener
MJ,
Some theologians speculate that perhaps since the fall the physical dimension is blind to the spiritual...and perhaps when things are restored the barriers between them will be broken.
I really like that thought. It seems to fit nicely with the thought that Jesus sacrifice made it possible for us as sinful humans to have a relationship with God and with Paul's words about being a physical man versus a spiritual one.
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M.J.
Here's a great summary by Leolaia on the big eschatological picture in Revelation:
The conception in Revelation, when not read through Watchtower spectacles, is that all faithful followers of Jesus will be put to death by the Beast (thereby undergoing a "great tribuluation"), and will thus be gathered up in heaven in their postmortem state. Everyone the Beast cannot compel to accept its mark will be executed. God meanwhile waits until the number of the faithful are complete before he unleashes his vengeance on the earth. Then everyone who had accepted the Beast's mark is executed in the "Great Day of God's Vengeance" (leaving the earth presumably empty, as it is in 4 Ezra 7:29-30), and then the present earth and heaven are replaced by a new heaven and earth....with all the dead assembled together to be judged according to their former deeds. Then in the last act, the heavenly Temple descends on the new earth, thereby restoring primeval paradise on the earth and God's presence therein (cf. 4 Ezra 7:36).