"These also I must bring..."John 10:16 (page 2)

Narkissos

Here's the thread I was thinking of: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/105820/1.ashx

One point regarding this scripture which clean bowled me for a duck when I was a WT follower [to use a cricket analogy, yes, the game they play in heaven] was when someone at the door pointed out the significance of the Jesus' use of the PRESENT tense.

Note that He said: "I have other sheep" not "I will have other sheep" [ie at some time in the future sayncirca 1935 AD] This then means that whoever these sheep were - they were in existence back there in the first century !!

Were the Gentiles in existence back then? You bet! Cornelius would be stomping around as a Roman centurion would, but knowing somewhere, somehow, that there was a higher calling.

Cheers

Narkissos

moggy lover,

Cf. 11:51f: "He (Caiaphas) did not say this on his own, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus was about to die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the dispersed children of God." The parallelism with 10:16 is crystal-clear.

Not only they were there (this understandably also applies to later generations, at least to the writer's one) but more importantly they were already "his sheep" and "children of God". A beautiful proto-Gnostic view which fortunately escaped the orthodox revisions.

M.J.

Great point, ML!

DoubleYouBee

It makes sense to me this way - The two 'folds' are Gentiles and Jews, but there is only one flock > believers, Christians.

God is not partial:

Acts 10: 44 While Peter was speaking, the Holy Spirit came on all who were hearing his words. 45 The Jewish followers who had come along with Peter were surprised and wondered because the gift of the Holy Spirit was also given to the people who were not Jews. 46 They heard them speak in special sounds and give thanks to God. Then Peter said, 47 "Will anyone say that these people may not be baptized? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

Romans 2: 21 But now God has made another way to make men right with Himself. It is not by the Law. The Law and the early preachers tell about it. 22 Men become right with God by putting their trust in Jesus Christ. God will accept men if they come this way. All men are the same to God. 23 For all men have sinned and have missed the shining-greatness of God. 24 Anyone can be made right with God by the free gift of His lovingfavor. It is Jesus Christ Who bought them with His blood and made them free from their sins.

Epesians 6: 9 Owners, do the right thing for those who work for you. Stop saying that you are going to be hard on them. Remember that your Owner and their Owner is in heaven. God does not respect one person more than another.

IMO the wall is 'sin' which separates sinners from God, not one flock from another - Matthew 27:51 At once the curtain in the house of God was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks fell apart.

So as our High Priest and the ONE door into the Kingdom of God, Christ opened the way to reconcile sinners to God, effectively ripping down the 'curtain' that divided us from Him - Hebrews 10: 19 Christian brothers, now we know we can go into the Holiest Place of All because the blood of Jesus was given. 20 We now come to God by the new and living way. Christ made this way for us. He opened the curtain, which was His own body.

We can't ignore that the Bible doesn't ever state '2 hopes' and it takes some scripture wrangling to make it appear so - as brought out by the other good posts. It sounds so ridiculous now,(screwy, screwy fer sure!) but I fell for it too.... Yes, ONE God, ONE Way, ONE hope. This one hope issued TO all mankind FROM heaven(thus 'a heavenly hope') - it is to be saved by our faith and God's grace through Christ. Christ will choose who will rule with him and in what capacity. It's presumptuous to think that one Christian over another Christian is bound for more or less glory or to delegate positions in heaven and on earth - but all religions do it and it's arrogant, self-righteous. Even the one religion that is such a loving brotherhood and has no clergy - lies-barf-lies- does the opposite from what it says by giving unearned respect and adoration to DO's, CO's, PO's, elders, and especially anyone from Bethel or the GB. "Do what they say(selflessly love God and neighbor), but not what they do"(walk in pride and partiality).

That makes sense doesn't it?

Searching and digging with you, WB

AK - Jeff

Nice thread, AS.

So, the wall, is what? Division between the two groups of sheep - Jews/Gentiles - separated at that time due to hatred and animosity between the two. The 'Gate' appears - in this case a 'gate' intended not to be locked, but to be thrown open to all who wished to enter the yard of Christianity. Some Jews would leave through the gate, and some Gentiles would enter. The seperation of centuries between the two is abolished, and all who wish to enter can do so thru the gatekeeper Jesus.

The gatekeeper protects and feeds all the sheep - and they are all one flock. Makes sense that only one end is in store for all.

Jeff

BurnTheShips

All I can say about this is:

WOW.

Thanks for posting.

Narkissos

to all who wished to enter the yard of Christianity.

As I attempted to show in the other thread I linked to, "Christianity" in John 10 is not pictured as an enclosed "yard" either.

V. 3: "He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out."

V. 9: "Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture."

AuldSoul

No barriers in Christ, eh, Narkissos? I like that...the whole world is the pasture of a Christian. Thanks again!

BCZAR2ME,

What need is there for a literal new heavens? Keep in mind that I reject the interpretive liberties of the WTS on that point. As I see it, the (1) heavens, (2) earth, (3) sea, (4) holy city, and (5) tabernacle or tent of God are all symbolic. Why do you choose the specific point in Revelation 21:1-4 to make things stop having a symbolic meaning and start having a literal meaning?

I am not trying to argue against your point, I am just very curious why you believe this passage indicates two hopes for Christians, especially given that nothing in the context indicates these in Revelation 21:1-4 were Christians prior to Armageddon.

I think the JW interpretation is just another example of a doctrine arising from dozens of interlinked assumptions leading to a "concrete" conclusion made of sand. Hit it just right and the whole thing turns to dust.

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

gumby

Anyone with half a brain who reads the N.T. can plainly see that in 1935 the 144,000 who will live in heaven was complete and that there was no more room in heaven and god gave all these stragglers who loved him after 1935 a home of their own on earth.........so don't listen to the apostate Auldsoul cuz he hates Jehovah.

Gumrightous

"These also I must bring..."John 10:16

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"These also I must bring..."John 10:16