ok it's really bugging me that the web.ovc.edu stuff won't paste in. It is good information on this subject with exactly which manuscripts use which word and it discusses the most likely textual history of the verse.
2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?
by M.J. 29 Replies latest watchtower bible
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M.J.
http://web.ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay272pt.htm
2 Peter 3:10:
TEXT: "the works that are in it will be found [out]."
EVIDENCE: S B K P 1175 1241 1739text 1881 syr(ph)
TRANSLATIONS: ASVn NASVn NIV NEB TEVn
RANK: D
NOTES: "the works that are in it will be burned up."
EVIDENCE: A 048 33 81 104 614 630 945 1739margin 2495 Byz Lect some lat later vg syr(h) cop(north)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASV RSV NASV NIVn NEBn TEVnNOTES: "the works that are in it will be found dissolved."
EVIDENCE: p72
TRANSLATIONS: TEVnNOTES: "the works that are in it will disappear."
EVIDENCE: C
TRANSLATIONS: TEVOTHER: "the works that are in it will not be found."
EVIDENCE: cop(south)OTHER: omit from "and the earth" to the end of the verse
EVIDENCE: Psi two lat earlier vgCOMMENTS: Probably the difficulty of understanding the meaning of the reading "be found" gave rise to the other readings. Copyists either added a word ("dissolved" or "not") or changed it to "be burned up" or "disappear."
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M.J.
I missed the footnote in the NWT:
Footnote
Rbi8 2 Peter 3:10
"Be discovered," ?B; AVg c , "be burned up."
Listener, thanks for those excellent resources. I'll have to strain my brain to grasp everything. What I'm gathering is that the supposed orginal word was to "be found", but copyists evidently had a hard time making sense of the sentence so they changed it to something that made more sense, to them at least. But this is simply a theory as to how the various readings arose. Do the EARLIEST manuscripts use the term "be found" or is that something unknown? From net.bible.org it doesn't seem to even address the "burned up" variant and supports the "will be disclosed" based on Baukham's case.
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moggy lover
As much as one hates to admit it, it does appear that at this text, the NWT has preserved the better attested reading than the KJV and those versions that have been derived, spiritually, at least, from it.
It appears that "Hurisko" - to find, discover, etc [cf the expression Eureka! which is related] was the original reading.Prof Bruce Metzger, writing in the "Textual Commentary on the Greek NT" [pg 706] endorses this reading as the most ancient. It therefore woud have been the original.
Of the three weightiest mss available, two, [from the 4CAD] the Sinaitic and the Vatican have "Hurisko", while the third, the Alexandrian [from the 5CAD] has "Kata-kaio" [ kaio=to burn, + kata an intensifying pronoun] hence=to consume fully with fire, etc. It is this reading that the KJV adopted, and the versions that follow in its wake have done the same.
The strange thing is that "katakaio" as a variant reading was introduced so early in textual transmission, hence the confusion.
Freddy was following along with the WH text which was superior in textual accuracy than that underlying the KJV, hence his reading. Maybe there is a place for him somewhere after all.
Cheers
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moggy lover
Incidently that site mentioned by both of you, Listener and MJ "ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay272pt.htm" is an excellent one I have added it to my favourites for future reference.
Cheers
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M.J.
Thanks ML. That's exactly the info I was curious about.
The footnote in the NASB (which says"burned up"), as you point out says,
Footnotes:
- 2 Peter 3:10 Two early mss read discovered
ML, do you reccommend that book by Metzger? I think I might pick that one up.
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moggy lover
MJ: Yep. I certainly would. Its an excellent book for textual research, done by one who is a leader in his field. Metzger was on the original panel that translated the NIV. It is written from an evangelical persepective, in that the author upholds the inerrancy of scripture and the integrity of the NT text.
Its format is similar to that in the site we have already mentioned, ie the terry/textual commentary site, but the book is far more comprehensive, and weighed down with much more textual information.
A WARNING, though:
The book does not come cheap, unfortunately. I got mine at a discount because I was at Bible college at the time studying NT Greek, and even that cost a pack !!
You should be able to obtain a copy at any fairly well stocked Christian bookstore, or you may visit the Inter-Varsity Fellowship website at: www.intervarsity.org
Hope that helps.
Cheers
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Leolaia
There are two main options in the manuscript tradition, heurethésetai "will be found" (in
B K P, etc.) and katakanésetai "will be burned up" (in A, and reflected in the Vg). The lectio difficilior (the more difficult reading, which is usually preferred) is undoubtedly the first, for it has a family of variant readings such as heurethésetai luomena "will be found dissolved" (in P 72 , the earliest witness of the text, but which repeats the same verb as luthésetai in the previous clause), oukh heurethésetai "will not be found" (in the Syro-Hexapla), etc., all involving this problematic verb. This is also a third important option aphanisthésontai "will vanish" in C. The textual history is pretty muddled, indicating that 2 Peter 2:10d has been difficult to interpret by copyists (some even omitting the entire clause). The principle of lectio difficilior would favor heurethésetai, as would its earlier testimony than the witnesses for katakanésetai. One very important piece of evidence beyond the manuscript tradition is provided by source criticism, which according to Bauckham would posit an earlier apocalyptic text that this used more broadly in the Petrine tradition in parallels in 2 Clement 16 and the Apocalypse of Peter. These parallels, which are not dependent on 2 Peter per se but are cognate to the canonical epistle, support the reading of heurethésetai:
2 Peter 3:10, 12: "But the day of the Lord (hémera kuriou) will come (éxei) like (hós) a thief. On that day the heavens (ouranoi) will pass away (pareleusontai) with a roar, the elements (stoikheia) will be dissolved (luthésetai) in the heat, and the earth (kai gé) and the works (ta erga) in it will be found (heurethésetai)....The heavens will be dissolved (luthésontai) in flames and the elements will melt (téketai) in the heat".
2 Clement 16:3: "But you know that the day of Judgment (hémera tés kriseós) is now coming (erkhetai) like (hós) a burning oven (klibanos kaiomenos), and some of the heavens (tónouranón) will melt (takésontai), and all the earth (kai pasa hé gé) will be like lead melting (tékomenos) in the fire, and then the secret and open works of men (erga tón anthrópón) will appear (phanera)".
Apocalypse of Peter (cited by Macarius): "The earth (hé gé) shall present (parastései) everyone to God to be judged on the day of judgment (hémerai kriseós), and the earth itself will be judged along with the heaven (ouranói) that encompasses it. And every power of heaven (pasa dunamis ouranou) will melt (takésetai), and heaven will be rolled up like a scroll (heilikhthésetai ho ouranous hós biblion), and all the stars shall fall like leaves from a vine, like the leaves from a fig tree".
Malachi 3:19 LXX, Isaiah 34:4 LXX: "For, behold, the day of the Lord (hémera kuriou) is coming (erkhetai) burninglike an oven (kaiomené hós klibanos) ... and all the powers of the heavens (pasai hai dunameistón ouranón) will melt (takésontai), and the heavens will roll up like a scroll (eligésetai ho ouranos hós biblion), and all the stars will fall as leaves fall from a vine, like the leaves fall from a fig tree".
Here we see that 2 Clement and the Apocalypse of Peter are not dependent on 2 Peter per se because each is dependent in their own way on the OT source texts of Malachi 3:19 and Isaiah 34:4. Both texts refer to the deeds of men being revealed on the day of Judgment; in 2 Clement the works (erga) will "appear" (phanera), and in the Apocalypse of Peter everyone will be "presented" (parastései) by the "earth" (hé gé) to be judged according to their deeds. The thought here is very close to Revelation 20:11-13:
"Heaven and earth (hé gé kai ho ouranos) fled from his presence, and no place was found (oukh heurethé) for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books (biblia) were opened (énoikhthésan). Another book was opened (énoikhthé), which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to their works (kata ta erga autón) as recorded in the books. The sea gave up (edóken) the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up (edókan) the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to their works (kata ta erga autón)".
In this text, we have a description of the dissolution of heaven and earth, fleeing from God's presence (like the heavens rolling up like a scroll). Notice that the same verb heurethé is used here, which with the negative oukh seems to underlie the scribal emendation of oukh heurethésetai in some versions of 2 Peter 3:10. Note that what follows is that the dead themselves are revealed by Hades, death, and the sea (cf. the earth presenting everyone to God in the Apocalypse of Peter, and the earth being "found" in 2 Peter), and their former "works" are revealed when the books are "opened".
Compare also the wording in Psalms of Solomon 17:8: "You rewarded them, O God, according to their sins (kata ta hamartémata autón), so that it may be found (heurethénai) to them according to their works (kata ta erga autón)". This is the same phrasing as in Revelation 20:12-13, but it also reflects the use of heurethésetai + erga in 2 Peter 3:10.
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gumby
In Genesis 6:13 regarding the flood, god says here I bringing to ruin all flesh along with the earth.
One could argue that god did not destroy the earth but rather it's surface, and destroyed the the things on the earth that defiled it.
Gumby
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A Paduan
As much as one hates to admit it, it does appear that at this text, the NWT has preserved the better attested reading than the KJV
To be poignant I would suggest that the meaning adopted was fortunistically other
Better being fortunistic in this case (in the endeavour to superiority) - particularly as it was known and written of, to be plainly seen by someone gathering bible info, that a variance had been entered, how "wicked christendom had changed it".
It's irking when the say truthful things - I want to take it away so they only lie.
B K P, etc.) and katakanésetai "will be burned up" (in A, and reflected in the Vg). The lectio difficilior (the more difficult reading, which is usually preferred) is undoubtedly the first, for it has a family of variant readings such as heurethésetai luomena "will be found dissolved" (in P 72 , the earliest witness of the text, but which repeats the same verb as luthésetai in the previous clause), oukh heurethésetai "will not be found" (in the Syro-Hexapla), etc., all involving this problematic verb. This is also a third important option aphanisthésontai "will vanish" in C.