A Dummies Discussion on God, the Universe and Everything.

nicolaou

Thought I'd try a different approach to the big questions but it'll probably descend into the usual disagreements. Still, no harm in trying . . .

The rules:

[1] No cut & paste. Post your own thoughts or don't post.
[2] Keep it short. If you can't make your point in 300 words or less you probably just can't make your point.
[3] Stay on topic.

Okay then, God.

Either he exists or he doesn't. To my knowledge, no-one has ever put forward an explanation as to how God came into existence. Claiming that he is 'eternal' is not an argument, just an assertion and an unsupportable one at that. Inferring his existence from the appearance of design in the natural world offers absolutely no insight into the matter of god's own existence.

Explain to me how God came to be and you will have gone some way to persuading me that the Universe was created. If I am convinced there is a Creator I'd be a fool to suppose that there is no 'Creation'. On the other hand, the lack of a satisfying explanation for God's origins must surely bring to the most religious mind the alternatives of natural selection as the explanation for the origins of life.

For that is the nub of the issue - original life.

Was original life the simplest, humblest, single celled microbe or was it the grandest, most complex, all powerful intelligence that has ever existed? Does life become more complex over billions of years in the manner of a small seed maturing into a wonderful sequoia or did life start at it's peak and only ever produce inferior varieties thereafter?

"In the beginning . . . . ?"

Cellist

As far as I know, nobody anywhere has proven anything regarding the origins of life. Not on the god side and not on the no-god side. I would love to see some solid evidence from ANY side in this debate.

Right now I would have to say, "Your guess is as good as mine."

Cellist

daniel-p

Is a discussion of the origin of life possible without implying the purpose of life? Hopefully, but probably not...

Satanus

I could give my opinion, but since it's just that, i guess i won't But, keep truckin.

S

stark

nico, good questions, now as for God coming into existence...He didn't. He always was. Now if you think about it you've got to come to the conclusion that if something exists now then something has always existed. Or better yet, something has to be eternal or there would be nothing.

One of the axioms of logic is that out of nothing-- nothing comes. Some have offered self creation, but that is illogical and impossible, because to create yourself you would have to exist before you existed...see the problem? So something has to have the power of being contained within itself.

Some, at this point, will say that everything in this universe leaked over from another universe, but that still assumes creation from something, and it doesn't answer the eternality question, it just moves it to another universe where we have to ask, how did that universe get there...well from another universe, which asks...then where did that universe come from...before you know it we have an infinite regression. This brings me back to my point; something has to be eternal.

I say all this to answer the very first part of your post where you said: "Claiming that he is 'eternal' is not an argument, just an assertion and an unsupportable one at that." I'm not claiming a "He" yet, I just want to see if you can accept an eternal something.

Remember, philosophically there are only three options to explain reality: 1. The universe is self--existent and eternal 2. The universe was created by something that was self--existent and eternal. 3. The universe is self--created.

How many words is that...did I go over? Nope 280

nicolaou

"Your guess is as good as mine." - Cellist

Absolutely not. Evolutionary models can take us back billions of years through countless forks in the 'tree' to the point where we reach the dawn of life - a single living cell. There are theories as to how that first cell assembled itself but no definite answers as yet. That doesn't mean the answer is forever unknowable or that in the lack of an answer right now we must default to 'God' as the solution.

The dawn of life only had to happen once, just once in a universe of billions upon billions of planets and it had over 14,000,000,000 years to do it. The odds of it not happening are huge!

So where are the theories explaining God's origin? Both sides may have ultimately unprovable positions but that is not to suggest that both positions are "as good as" each other. Evolutionary theory is left to explain something tiny, simple and basic. Religion is left to explain GOD!

nicolaou

Is a discussion of the origin of life possible without implying the purpose of life? - daniel p

Yes. Try it, it's easy.

gordon d

Ok Nic,
How do evolutionist support walking upright?

If mankind is the highest evolved species (mentally), what are the proposed benefits of bipedal movement? Other quadripod/bipods can still reach higher vegetation----bears, apes, dogs, etc... yet all other species (with the exception of a few reptiles) can run faster on all fours. What would be the evolutionary "advantage" for walking upright?

If standing erect requires much more balance than being on all fours... why are humans the only species without a tail?

Since 50% of each day is in darkness and since humans have very little physiological defenses against predators, why is their night vision one of the worst in the entire animal kingdom?

What would be the evolutionary benefit of not being reproductive or approaching physical maturity until approx. 12 years of life (roughly 30% into the life span of ancient man)... compare this with the life cycle of any other mammal. What other animal is not "full grown" so late in life... why?

What is the evolutionary advantage of exploiting available resource for humans having such a "delicate" digestive system? Other animals within the same food chain can eat things that would make a human sick or die.

What is the advantage of being practically hairless?

What is the advantage of male facial hair?

What is the advantage of emotions like sadness, jealosy, or remorse?

nicolaou

gordon

I never made the claim that I had all the answers, just that one proposal seems far more reasonable to me than the alternative. As I previously stated, "the lack of an answer right now [doesn't mean] we must default to 'God' as the solution." That just throws up even bigger and more difficult questions.

Still, I'll give your first question a shot.

Bipedal movement has released our hands. We use and make tools. An advantage of walking upright would be the ability to see further - especially in plains and grasslands.

I'm sure more qualified individuals could provide reasons for the other traits you mention (perhaps being hairless provides for better hygeine - fewer ticks and infestations). My point was that the propositions for and against god are not equal.

Your turn gordon. Did god evolve into the being that he is now? Did he spontaneously generate himself into existence or did he simply exist for all time, uncaused and without explanation?

gordon d

Sorry I didn't answer that part (the main part) of your question...

..... it's late and when I get tired I revert into my believer's safety shell of "not thinking"!

It's a Very good question but the best answer that I have +++ please don't throw up+++ Is the one they gave us at church:

"I really don't know... but I'll ask him as soon as I get there!!"

Let me sleep on it and I promise I'll come up with something better tomorrow... I Hope!

G'nite

A Dummies Discussion on God, the Universe and Everything.

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