The Science of Belief

by LittleToe 90 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LtCmd.Lore
    LtCmd.Lore

    Acctualy there is a thing called the 'placebo effect', and it's a study of the mind.

    It has been proven that if a patient has an illness, of whatever kind. The doctor can give him a pill, that doesn't do anything at all, and if he has confidence in the doctor he has a much greater chance of getting better. But it's all in the head. So I don't doubt that if someone has faith that god will help them, they may get better faster than otherwise. But it's all about the mental state, and has nothing to do with god...

    I don't believe in god, but I believe in the power of the mind. Look it up, the wikipedia has a good article on it. Interesting stuff.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    LittleToe:

    Belief is an inherent part of the human psyche.

    Agreed. Belief - specifically belief in supernatural beings or forces that affect us - is common to all cultures, and a tendency towards belief appears to be inborn.

    This does not tell us anything about whether belief is a good thing! Greed, hubris, jealousy and self-pity are all also entrenched qualities of the human condition. But this does not mean we should celebrate or embrace them. And it should be noted that people who do not display any of these qualities are no less human than those who have them in abundance.

    What is it about belief that allows it to thrive in so many diverse cultures? It certainly can't be the veracity of the claims believed, as many mutually incompatible beliefs are held with great fervour by different people.

    Here is where the nature of belief steps up to the plate. Externalising the source of the change is one (and only one) method of improving success. It allows the conscious mind to "release" the problem, after articulation, allowing the subconscious mind to operate. There are often tangible physiological reactions, too, in that the experimenter relaxes.

    There is certainly a case to me made that belief works somewhat like a placebo, but I have to question whether the advantages of this approach outweigh the disadvantages. Placebos can be of benefit to someone who has a minor illness, or even a chronic condition that cannot be effectively relieved by medical treatment, but someone who takes them when there is a real problem, as adherents to "alternative medicines" often do, risks losing their life to a preventable medical condition.

    It is my contention that religious belief comes with similar costs. Belief in an afterlife may comfort the bereaved, and having someone to talk to (either a deity or a human proxy) can bring comfort in times of distress, but like alternative medicine, when there's a real problem, a real solution is needed and belief in itself cannot provide one. Those who have developed a high level of dependency on their religion may find themselves ill-equipped to deal with real-world problems, or may be unwilling to do so, preferring to rely on faith.

    A drunk will likewise tend to suffer less damage from a fall, due to inebriation of the senses and a more relaxed musculature.

    It's important to note here that a drunk is more likely to fall in the first place due to the same inebriation.

    One time-worn method of "releasing" the problem, in the Western mystical tradition, is prayer. Here the "catch" is magnified in that the process really does require belief, not just credulity or the begrudging experiments of an objectively focussed mind. By handing over the problem to "someone" whom we trust, we are enabled to engage with the process at the subconscious level necessary. Building that level of trust is another story, however, as it takes dedication to the task.

    This is a huge part of my issue with belief. You can show me all the data you want proving the benefits of belief, I can agree that you are right and that the healthiest thing for me to do would be to start believing in God. But I can't. I just can't do it. I cannot believe in something I don't believe in. I can't just decide to change my mind. Believe or get sick? Can't do it. Believe or die? Still nothing. Believe or be tortured for eternity? Even less than the previous one as I can't believe in eternal torture either. Just act like I believe? I find myself unable to live a lie. Most likely, it wouldn't benefit me psychologically or with the deity in question if it happened to exist, and certainly not with its rivals.

    I don't fully know the answer to the question of whether belief is necessary for society. I'm fairly certain it's not necessary for individuals as I have been a non-believer for over a decade and I'm doing just fine. There are, in fact, many successful and happy unbelievers and there is no evidence to indicate that those who believe are happier or more successful than those who do not.

    But perhaps it's necessary for some people, the hoi polloi, the working classes. Perhaps they need religion to give meaning to their dull and tedious lives. Perhaps the cognoscenti need it to stop the "peasants" revolting. Perhaps, but that doesn't seem very noble to me. It strikes me as degrading to those who are deemed incapable of living a good life without belief, a patronising dismissal of their intellect, or a calculated, manipulative way of suppressing civil unrest.

    My personal opinion is that religious belief comes from a combination of our desire to understand the world and our preprogrammed trust in our parents and community leaders. These quirks of our species, combined perhaps with the unifying community-building effects of religion have led to a world where religion is ubiquitous.

    But I think we can do without it. As children growing up no longer need their security blankets, so too, we enlightened moderns should be able to step into the light and view the world as it really is, not as we wish it to be.

    Suggested reading:

    Breaking The Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel C. Dennett
    The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan
    Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time by Michael Shermer
    The Meme Machine by Susan J. Blackmore

    and if you can handle it:

    The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins

    Great strides are being made in exploring the "outer" world, and there's no doubt about the tangible benefits this has produced. Unfortunately our understanding of the "inner" world is atrophying through materialist neglect. I guess it's understandable, as few are willing to take the abuse that it heaped upon them for daring to study such a "worthless" science.

    Nonsense! Materialists in many relevant fields (neuroscience, psychology, philosophy, sociobiology etc.) are busy probing the "'inner' world" of mind and consciousness. Some of the above mentioned books touch on this subject, especially Blackmore. Dennett's Consciousness Explained does exactly what it says on the tin, or at least makes a pretty good stab at it.Other titles that come to mind are How The Mind Works and The Blank Slate:The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Steven Pinker, The Feeling of What Happens: Body, Emotion and the Making of Consciousness by Antonio Damasio and The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat by Oliver Sacks.

    The only danger of atrophy, it seems to me, comes from that school of thought that already has answers and is not interested in learning anything new or testing whether they are right or wrong.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Now we're in business - where's Gyles? ~rubs hands and cackles in glee~

    Nic:
    Thanks for your comments. I take onboard your point about beliefs vs religious beliefs. You are of course right in that I meant the religious variety, in the opening sentence, though as you discerned the topic is much wider than that.

    Like you, I despise religion for it's own sake (I know you go even further than that, but that's ok). To me, most of modern religion is either empty or self-induced ecstacy. I do believe there's a middle ground, however, and it is in that fora that I concentrate my own efforts.

    LtC:
    Unfortunately placebos are illegal in this country. There's empirical evidence that suggests that they can certainly be effective, supporting your claim. Part of the problem is that when people cotton on to the fact that they are receiving a placebo the results diminish rapidly.

    This is why I drew a distinction between merely fooling ourselves and the deeper nature of belief. The latter is based on consistent results that build up a caralogue of internalised evidence. It might be very difficult to replicate, but for the individual that is irrelevant.

    Derek:
    Ooh, now I've got something to really get my teeth stuck into, thanks

    What is it about belief that allows it to thrive in so many diverse cultures? It certainly can't be the veracity of the claims believed, as many mutually incompatible beliefs are held with great fervour by different people.

    What are the common denominators that ensure its survival? It certainly doesn't appear to be the differences. While there may be something in the controversy factor feeding our inherent xenophobia, I suspect that the positive aspects are more to blame. We receive something from belief that cannot be found from a simple cold, hard stare at a situation. In a unique way it opens us up to listen to that small nagging voice in the back of our heads that we call "intuition".

    ...placebo... but someone who takes them when there is a real problem, as adherents to "alternative medicines" often do, risks losing their life to a preventable medical condition.

    I concur, and unfortunately this is one of the more extreme faces of belief. The WTS blood policy being a case in point.

    Those who have developed a high level of dependency on their religion may find themselves ill-equipped to deal with real-world problems, or may be unwilling to do so, preferring to rely on faith.

    I also concur with this point. As I've stated many times, religion might be a useful stepping stone but it becomes a very slippery and dangerous one if we allow our full weight to remain on it.

    On a more positive note, however, religion will sometimes provide tools to equip an individual in real life situations. One example being the fulfilling of a social need, and the care that such a community can bring. In the modern age, such social settings are dwindling, but I digress.

    It's important to note here that a drunk is more likely to fall in the first place due to the same inebriation.

    Which only provides more opportunities for statistical analysis

    This is a huge part of my issue with belief. You can show me all the data you want proving the benefits of belief, I can agree that you are right and that the healthiest thing for me to do would be to start believing in God. But I can't. I just can't do it. I cannot believe in something I don't believe in. I can't just decide to change my mind.

    Thank you for your candor. I agree.

    We extrapolate our beliefs from our interpretation of the evidence presented to us. No evidence leaves nothing to interpret, leading to no belief. Since you would claim to have no evidence to work with, who am I to argue against that? I have no option but to be as gracious as you are concerning my own subjective experiences that led to my belief.

    There are, in fact, many successful and happy unbelievers and there is no evidence to indicate that those who believe are happier or more successful than those who do not.

    To be candid, I would go one stage further. Having seen some people who were absolutely miserable with belief, some unbelievers are more happy and successful.

    and if you can handle it:

    You know I can handle it. The difficulty is in finding time to read the kind of material I want to. I started on a Masters programme a couple of weeks ago

    While I agree with most of your other comments, I do take issue with this:

    Dennett's Consciousness Explained does exactly what it says on the tin, or at least makes a pretty good stab at it... etc.

    I agree that work is ongoing, but solutions are sparce, as is confessed by most in the field[s]. I'm of the opinion that in an attempt to dislocate belief from the process we are crippling our own efforts. It's a little like the affects of the "observer" in Quantum Theory. It's hard to use the scientific method scrupulously when we are so deeply engaged in the experiment itself, and yet we pretend to do so. More self-deception?.

    Great post, though, thanks

  • daystar
    daystar

    Well... I know "scientific illuminism" has gotten a bad reputation. I mean, it's not really "science", but it's an attempt at hypothesizing and testing the intangible.

    One can increase exponentially the efficacy of this approach beyond simply praying or reciting daily affirmations, though those are certainly part of it.

    I'll let you keep the rather more mainstream tone you have here.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Give it a day or two and, if things quieten down, burst in the side door, will ya?

  • daystar
    daystar

    I'll be glad to.

  • proplog2
  • proplog2
  • daystar
    daystar

    Proplog, you're going to have to host that file somewhere on the internet where we can all access it.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT

    Belief has to rest on knowledge.

    OK, What "knowledge" do you possess, that the unbeliever does not? Where does presupposition fit in? It seems to me, or I "believe" scratchhead, belief rests more on presupposition. Maybe a better question is, How do we "know" what we know? How do we "know" anything?

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