just another religion

by teejay 42 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  teejay

  Gopher

  The first post in this thread is untrue, by definition.

  It's not untrue. You just disagree with it. There are many similarities between displays (and feelings) of patriotism and religion. One is that many people don't love either their country or their religion but only the IDEA of country and religion.

  And your flippant comment about there being more flag-waving and yet people treat each other the same bad way outside the arena or event, is a gross and untrue generalization. WE NEED EACH OTHER MORE THAN EVER!

  There's really no need for emotionalism. What I meant to say is that one's purported love for country (as is also true of their supposed love of their church) brings about no real or lasting change in their thoughts or behavior. It's just an activity that engages them for a while, and their heartfelt oaths of allegiance spoken through quivering lips fades as fast as it arrives.

  Yes, there may be some "false" patriotism followed by people being jerks...

  Some?

  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Utopian Reformist

  I hate to admit it, and this will probably start a nuclear flaming frenzy in this thread, but, I am already VERY tired of the flags and songs... I see neighbors of mine who regularly cheat on their taxes, drive the highways drunk, smoke dope on summer weekends in their backyard barbeques, who also never served a day in their lives, and now all of a sudden are "patriotic".

  That's what I was talking about. People CLAIM to love their country but their behavior contradicts their words. The "patriotism" of the kind we've seen lately is not likely to make people significantly different. The same with their church (Kingdom Hall).People generally "believe" until it costs them something. Then, they begin to hedge.

  Thanks for the quotes from Butler. I agree with nearly every word. Specifically:

  Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.

  The trouble with America is that ... the dollar ... goes overseas... the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.

  There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

  That last quote I'm sensitive about. The life of young people is more precious than politicians seem to feel. I didn't agree with any action on the part of U.S. armed forces since the day of my birth. "fighting for democracy" is the hypodermic needle that is stuck into people that makes them think and do things that they wouldn't otherwise.

  I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

  Sure does put war into perspective. Do you know whether it's true that there are vast mineral and oil reserves in Afghanistan?

  Just my thoughts about "rah-rah" nationalism.

  Good for you, UR. I'm with you. Btw, thanks for sharing your Marine experiences. One more thing, if you're still here and see this...

  I'd heard that when Bush became prez his Marine guard began to show him respect (saluted, turned to face him as he walked past, etc) that they did not show Clinton. Do you know if that's true? And is it also true that "once a Marine, always a Marine"?

  Thanks all for your comments.
• 

  Gopher

  Teejay,

  Thanks for the responses. They made me think some more....I'm not just continuing the thread for argumentation, just in my mind there still needs to be some clarification.

  If you had said "PATRIOTISM is similar to (or is like) a religion", I couldn't dispute that. Similar intense feelings are stirred. By definition patriotism still isn't a religion, unless you force open the definition to include ideas like "Baseball is his religion", or "Making money is his religion", meaning fervor. (But not strictly by definition.)

  You correctly point out that patriotism doesn't change how people treat each other in the long term. That's not its purpose. In a diverse and free society, the purpose of patriotism is to bind people together for a common cause, especially in times of national emergency. Even if it appears to be "just for show", it's important in that it serves as a morale booster for the leaders and the soldiers who will go and see that the war is executed, knowing they have the backing of the common people. Yes, flag waving doesn't halt missiles, and it doesn't necessarily make people love each other. But there can be no denying there HAS been a firm resolve on the part of the majority of Americans, to unite behind their leadership, to try and cut terrorism down to size.

  I was very curious about your statement which questions American motives, and that is, are the vast mineral and oil reserves in Afghanistan? Please. That's not even close to what this military action is about. Four planes were hijacked, two towers destroyed, much of the Pentagon = gone, all this in broad daylight, an "in your face" hatred of America just because (a) it's the world's #1 power, and (b) its people disagree with radical Islam. This present war is a war about whether terrorists can have their way without interference in the 21st century.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
• 

  DannyBear

  It is becoming clearer and clearer to me why so many people claim to be 'middle of the road', on so many volitile issues. No one can really take pot shots at you, because your feet are straddling the lines. 'Well he's not for us, but then again he's not against us.'
  Nice comfortable place to be.

  I suppose none of you non-nationalistic types apply the same line of reasoning to your favorite sporting events as well, eh? Do you view the support for your team, as religous in nature? No. Why not? It is all a matter of degree.

  In the big game of life, the world is the stadium, the teams are nations, the uniforms are different colors. The captains/manager's(governments) of the teams make good and bad decisions.

  What is worth celebrating is the fact that you do have a freedom of choice, as to which world team you will offer aide and support to. I challenge anyone who is a sports fan, to sit in an arena full of 'fans', and try to enlist other's in attendance....not to wave, shout, show conviction for, or otherwise stifel, anyone's display of team loyalty. You can try, but I think you will be "sorely" disappointed in the outcome. Not only would you be sore, but you also must realize you wasted a ton of energy, trying to stop what is inevitable.....PEOPLE TAKE SIDES....then they cheer for their side.

  Nothing religous, conspiratorial, evil about the whole process.

  Imo, it is more fun to sit squarely on the side of the team I have chosen. If for no other reason, the outcome to 'fence sitter's'...'middle of the roader's'....is that they watched a game...having really no emotion, no feeling, no pride, no reason for even being in attendance.

  If you are going to attend the game.....why not choose up sides? A rhetorical question, but one that begs an answer....are you with us or against us? Valid, worthwhile, almost inescapable in view of the the two teams now ready to do combat, terror vs. freedom.

  If you choose other than freedom, your religon will be dictated by the team that has no compunction about violating the rules, they will stoop to any method or crime to win. They are crazy with hate for the 'freedom' team. They will individualy and collectively give their own lives to win. They hate the fans of 'freedom' just as much as their opponents on the field, making no distinction between innocent observer's and participants in the game. They are ruthless and unrelenting in their pursuit of the prize...Allah be praised..in death or life...

  What team do you support?

  You bet I will fly my teams flag, you bet I will shout, yell, sing with tears in my eye's......because I know.....my team HAS TO WIN...there is no alternative.

  GO TEAM GO!

  Danny
• 

  larc

  Danny,

  Thank you for your thoughts. I wan't make a response, but I couldn't quite frame my words, and your post gave me some clarification.

  In my opinion, it is not a matter of religion or polictics. It is our natural inclination to form groups and feel proud of our group. Your phrase, go team go, reminds me of high school and the rivalries with other schools. This we-they belief and the emotions involved are deep seated in our very make up. Most of the time this group feeling works to our advantage. At other times is causes great damage to ourselves and our opponent.

  Danny, as you point out, in this situation, we have no other choice but to say, go team go. Our way of live is at stake.
• 

  tdogg

  Good points from both sides. I think some like myself that were raised JW were never taught a "reverence" for the flag itself. We never said the pledge and were taught the flag was an idol. These ideals were not incorporated in our minds at young ages by the rituals performed every day in school. So while some see a flag as a the incarnation of freedom itself, others see it a just a flag. I see it as the 'colors' of a nation and a symbol but not to be revered and worshipped. The ideals and realities that the flag represents are far more important than the flag itself.

  The 'team colors' analogy makes a lot of sense to me. I wear my team colors when I go to a football game and I adorn myself in team paraphernalia at times. I cheer for my team and criticize them when they do things I dont like(but I still wear the shirt.) However, things like burning a flag because it touches the ground seem very illogical to me. I see the flag as the 'logo' of our nation it is a symbol that represents us and our ideals as a nation so if you want to wave a flag, great. We just put one up for the first time on our house but I wont pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth and if it touches the ground when I take it down, oh well.

  When it is said that people die "defending our flag" I dont take that literally because they really died defending the ideals and way of life we use the flag as a symbol for.

  I hope our team wins with a shutout.
• 

  DannyBear

  larc,

  Terrorisim is a new kind of enemy, from a nationalistic view. These guys really have no home turf, they really have little resources that one can identify. Man Oh man do they represent a 'clear and present danger' to every one of us, on a daily basis.

  It is unfortunate that it took the events of Sept 11 to cement the USA's resolve to fight this enemy, instead of ignoring the threat. That is exactly what we have been doing for the last 53yrs particularly, living in ignorance of this malady called terrorism.

  Isreal since 1948 has been living under the seige of fear and terror. They have developed a national resolve to resist this enemy, that is worth analysis and emulation, in many respects. There may be many diverse opinions about the right of exsistance of this state, let alone the aide given by the USA, but they have displayed some amazing capablities, both military wise and a national will that seems very united against this threat of terror.

  Put any other free democratic nation in the same place as Isreal, they would be performing in a similar fashion. Radical, fundemental Islam has no tolerance for freedom. They want a world order of Allahisim, dictating every little nuance of life, setting back the clock 1000yrs plus, no singing, no unathourized dancing, no flesh showing, swift and merciless ruling class judgement on all matters, when to pray, where to pray, in other words, their way of life is threatened by freedom. So much so, they will give up everything to fight it. Who can deny it after what we have witnessed?

  There has never been such a clear indication, that it is now the time to have full resolve, to not allow ourselves the 'out' of 'sitting on the fence'......that 'fence' may not be there to sit on...if we allow this enemy room to play their game.

  Danny
• 

  GinnyTosken

  DannyBear,

  The analogy you use to think of the terrorist situation will affect your perceptions of it.

  Sam Keen says:
  

  Metaphysics and myth-making are a game of making a whole out of parts, a way of teasing the fragments of life into a vision of completeness. To play the game, we take some important aspect of human experience and let the imagination run wild. Let's suppose the world is like a big animal, or a plant, or a city, or an artifact, or a business, or a battle, or an accident, or a dream, or a machine, or a rate race, or a love relationship. Everybody plays the game, consciously or unconsciously. There is no way not to play it. Since we never see the whole except through the distorted spectacles of some limited analogy, every perspective is tinged with foolishness.

  from The Passionate Life

  If you think of this situation as a sporting event, there will have to be a winner and a loser. The option of mediation or of a win/win solution will probably be overlooked.

  A sporting analogy makes most of us passive spectators. We can wave our flags and cheer on the team, but we cannot vote on the plays the coach uses. The clashes between our teams will probably never end.

  Why are people loyal to certain teams? Often it's a matter of where they happen to live rather than a matter of which team is more skilled. Some people love to root for an underdog.

  What "sporting" skills are we valuing? Diplomacy? Military might? Righteousness? Justice?

  Who are the referees?

  Imo, it is more fun to sit squarely on the side of the team I have chosen. If for no other reason, the outcome to 'fence sitter's'...'middle of the roader's'....is that they watched a game...having really no emotion, no feeling, no pride, no reason for even being in attendance.

  I don't really understand why I should have pride in a sports team. I have done nothing to contribute to their abilities and tactical expertise. People pick a team and hope it wins. Whoooeee.

  A related issue is the role of reflected glory in self-esteem, which has both apparently inappropriate and potentially beneficial effects. Should individuals' self-esteem be influenced by the performance of their hometown football team or their country's Olympic teams? According to research on "basking in reflected glory" (BIRGing) reported by Cialdini (1974, 1976), Lee (1985), and Kowalski (1991), the tendency to strengthen one's association with those who are visibly successful and to distance oneself from those who have experienced obvious failures as means of self-enhancement is a common phenomenon. Inasmuch as a sports fan makes no real contribution to the team's performance, that performance would seem to be an inappropriate source of either pride or shame and of fluctuations in the fan's self-esteem. On the other hand, the capacity to experience reflected glory and reflected shame might provide powerful motivation for community action. Action on behalf of one's community would seem to be a legitimate basis for self-esteem.

  from http://ericeece.org/pubs/books/selfe/distinct.html

  I think this is also interesting:

  NLM CIT. ID: 99027504

  TI: Testosterone changes during vicarious experiences of winning and losing among fans at sporting events.

  AU: Bernhardt PC; Dabbs JM Jr; Fielden JA; Lutter CD

  AB: Basking in reflected glory, in which individuals increase their self-esteem by identifying with successful others, is usually regarded as a cognitive process that can affect behavior. It may also involve physiological processes, including changes in the production of endocrine hormones. The present research involved two studies of changes in testosterone levels among fans watching their favorite sports teams win or lose. In the first study, participants were eight male fans attending a basketball game between traditional college rivals. In the second study, participants were 21 male fans watching a televised World Cup soccer match between traditional international rivals. Participants provided saliva samples for testosterone assay before and after the contest. In both studies, mean testosterone level increased in the fans of winning teams and decreased in the fans of losing teams. These findings suggest that watching one's heroes win or lose has physiological consequences that extend beyond changes in mood and self-esteem.

  MAIN MESH HEADINGS: Sports/*physiology Sports/*psychology Testosterone/*metabolism

  SO: Physiol Behav 1998 Aug;65(1):59-62

  from http://sportsmedicine.lsumc.edu/Sports/Soccer/Cites/Psych.html

  Go Team Testosterone!

  I think of something Morrie Schwartz said at a sporting event, quoted in Tuesdays with Morrie: What's wrong with being Number Two?

  If I'm really interested in a particular sport, I can enjoy watching a game no matter who wins. What is enjoyable for me is the display of skill.

  The current situation is not a game. People will die. We cannot walk out of the stadium after the game is over. The decisions that are made now will affect all of our lives for many years to come.

  Ginny
• 

  DannyBear

  Ginny,

  After reading your comments, I still do not know what team your rooting for?

  Ginny I get it, you propose that making analogies based on sporting events is equivilent to;** "Since we never see the whole except through the distorted spectacles of some limited analogy, every perspective is tinged with foolishness"**

  Since the rest of your post seemed to indicate your considerable distaste for the analogy, I will speak in realistic terms.

  The 'terrorists' who attacked New York, Viginia, Penn., have a cause (game plan if you will..ehemm lol) that cause was and is to destroy, mame, kill, any and all infidels, especially American infidels. Whatever the their reason, that is their plan, agreed?

  If you agree, then I must follow up with...what should we do about it?
  Since these 'terrorists' have made it abundently clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt, how they will wage their holy war of terror, how they are unwilling to negotiate on any terms, how they will not relent or compromise ANY of their cherished beliefs, stands, propaganda. How much clearer do you need them to clarify their stand?

  Are you demanding that they perform a few more terror acts, just so we know they mean what they say? Give them another chance at acting like civilized humans should?? No..that was fairly trite eh. Well how trite is this comment;

  ***The current situation is not a game. People will die. We cannot walk out of the stadium after the game is over. The decisions that are made now will affect all of our lives for many years to come.***

  Trite, is not the word for it, more like simplistic wishing that life were different.....you say by the above statement... that we shouldn't have any reason to kill or be killed, make hard life shattering decisions (of which either of us are even remotely involved in), that what someone does over there in the deserts of Afgan should not affect us at all, we should be bigger, better than they. It is not a game?????? Well Ginny just what do you call all this posturting, propaganda, furor of emotions, dieing?

  Reality?

  Then lets face it head on....or we can sit by, posture ourselves into some blissful mental state of 'Buddahlike' transcendental altered state of being, which will allow us to just sit back and 'wait on Jehovah'.....your tone your points all lead me to the conclusion, that Ginny not only did not like the analogy, but really does not want to have any part in THIS GAME.

  Danny
• 

  teejay

  Gopher

  By definition patriotism still isn't a religion, unless you force open the definition to include ideas like "Baseball is his religion", or "Making money is his religion"

  Of course patriotism isn't a religion in the sense that Christianity or Islam is. But there ARE similarities. Utopian expressed my thought better than I did as he seemed to get my point. All I was saying is that the recent wave of patriotism that you see will have no lasting affect on the people who show it. People who say, "I love my country" are often no more genuine than those who say, "I love my church."

  ... the purpose of patriotism is to bind people together for a common cause, especially in times of national emergency. Even if it appears to be "just for show", it's important in that it serves as a morale booster for the leaders and the soldiers who will go and see that the war is executed, knowing they have the backing of the common people.

  Would you say that is the ONLY purpose of patriotism? Based on your definition, I think you and I have different definitions of the word. I think it describes a feeling that exists in the person, regardless of the circumstances, be it emergencies or whatever. It's not a garment that you put on as needed but a feeling that lives with you continually and is expressed in big and small ways. Waving the flag, hanging it from your car antennae, saying I support the prez is not my view of patriotism.

  But there can be no denying there HAS been a firm resolve on the part of the majority of Americans, to unite behind their leadership, to try and cut terrorism down to size.

  It seems that based on this, to you "patriotism" is an emotion that springs to life in time of need and not a feeling that a person feels all the time. I guess that's one way of looking at it.

  I was very curious about your statement which questions American motives, and that is, are the vast mineral and oil reserves in Afghanistan? Please. That's not even close to what this military action is about.

  Utopian quoted a Marine who gave a brief overview of America's military actions in the early 1900s. One of the constants behind nearly every one of them was that there was a monetary motivation at their foundation. Powerful, rich businessmen profitted as a direct result of the military action. They may have been the reason for the action to begin with. America generally does not go to war out of the kindness of its heart. Usually there's money to be made.

  I had read something suggesting the possibility of oil, that's all, and I thought I'd ask.

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Danny,

  It is becoming clearer and clearer to me why so many people claim to be 'middle of the road', on so many volitile issues. No one can really take pot shots at you...

  Funny. It DOES help you to keep a low profile. Maybe I should try that, huh?

  I suppose none of you non-nationalistic types apply the same line of reasoning to your favorite sporting events as well, eh? Do you view the support for your team, as religous in nature? No. Why not? It is all a matter of degree.

  Nice try, my friend but a reasonable person cannot possibly draw a parallel between watching a sporting event and one's love of country and all that entails. Of course there are exceptions, but most people who support a team realize it's only a segment of corporate America. Entertainment. After the game, what does the fan really win or loose (not counting a bet you've made). If your team wins, YOU don't win. The people on the field and everyone else employed by the organization won. No one else.

  If you are going to attend the game.....why not choose up sides? A rhetorical question, but one that begs an answer....are you with us or against us? Valid, worthwhile, almost inescapable in view of the the two teams now ready to do combat, terror vs. freedom.

  Don't get me wrong danny. I love America. That is no empty phrase.

  Back when I was a hard-core witness, one summer the missionaries came to the district assembly -- you know, one of those 5-day, special assemblies? maybe '78, '79. Anyway, the sister talked about coming home, how she felt when she saw the flag. She expressed a reverence, not just for 'home' or country, but for the flag itself, "because of what it represents," she said.

  It kind of shocked me... I remember feeling. Not that she said it or felt it, but that she was allowed to say it the way she did in front of 15,000 people. I had the idea that she looked at the flag in the same way that the Marines do that Utopian spoke of earlier. Almost idolatrous. But I agreed with her, even as a teenager.

  I think you will find that many Blacks feel as I do. We have been, generally speaking, not treated as well as we could have been over the years and still aren't. There are good reasons for us to be less patriotic than other groups who have not experienced what we have as a group. For example, during WWII, I'm sure you know that German prisoners of war were housed on American soil. There were incidents where the Germans prisoners -- fighting for Nazism, killing American boys -- were given better treatment than the Black American soldiers in the same area.

  Silly incidents like probably should lead more blacks to adopt the view that there is no reason to be patriotic, but the opposite is true. I think we tend to understand what the missionary said that time. While White America loves America for what it has given them, Black America loves America because of what it promises. We love the IDEA of it... that it doesn't really matter what you look like, what you have, where you live... you will be respected, honored, loved and the laws will treat you as well as everyone. Of course it does matter, but there's always the promise that it won't.

  I got off on a little rant here, but people who would steal a flag from one of their neighbors, as some have since the store is sold out, is not patriotic. They are, to use a colloquial term, "fronting." In the same way, I'm sure you know (or knew) "good" JWs whose actions betrayed their claim. JWs aren't the only bible-based religion that has people like that. They all do. That's what I meant when I said that patriotism and religion are the same. I could've said it better, but that's what I meant.

  I hope our team wins with a shutout.

  And I hope that every one that the American forces kill is guilty. Otherwise, if innocent people are killed, in what way are we different than the pilots who crashed into the building?
  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  You can't separate peace from freedom, because no one can be at
  peace unless he has his freedom. -- Malcolm X
• 

  GinnyTosken

  Dannybear,

  After reading your comments, I still do not know what team your rooting for?

  I am rooting for the human race, Dannybear.

  The 'terrorists' who attacked New York, Viginia, Penn., have a cause (game plan if you will..ehemm lol) that cause was and is to destroy, mame, kill, any and all infidels, especially American infidels. Whatever the their reason, that is their plan, agreed?

  No, I do not agree. The men who did this are dead. We can only guess at their cause. It seems plausible that they were linked to al-Qaeda and possibly Osama bin Laden. The Taliban and other governments may have supported them. Unless there has been recent news that I have not heard, the U.S. has not yet released solid evidence pinpointing those who assisted these terrorists.

  If those behind this are radical Islamists, bin Laden has expressed his cause as a wish to punish tyrants and aggressors and enemies of Allah, to straighten things out and make them right. He wants to drive the enemies of Allah out of Islamic countries and stop them from meddling in the affairs of Islamic nations. Meanwhile, he hopes that all peoples will answer the call to embrace Islam.

  This "game plan" is a bit different from a desire to "destroy, mame, kill, any and all infidels." That appears to be the game plan of George W. Bush, who says he is fighting a crusade to rid the world of evil-doers.

  If you agree, then I must follow up with...what should we do about it? Since these 'terrorists' have made it abundently clear, beyond a shadow of a doubt, how they will wage their holy war of terror, how they are unwilling to negotiate on any terms, how they will not relent or compromise ANY of their cherished beliefs, stands, propaganda. How much clearer do you need them to clarify their stand?

  While I don't agree with your basic premises, I do agree that terrorist behavior must be stopped. If you think of it in a medical analogy, one also limited and tinged with foolishness, the carriers of this terrorist illness must be isolated for treatment. A fanatic religious mindset seems to be the cause of this illness, irritated by political and commercial factors. Just as former Jehovah's Witnesses are often best qualified to expose the lies and twists of the JW mindset, I think that the moderate Islamic world is best qualified to point out the errors in the radical Islamic mindset.

  Are you demanding that they perform a few more terror acts, just so we know they mean what they say? Give them another chance at acting like civilized humans should?? No..that was fairly trite eh. Well how trite is this comment;

  I don't quite understand how you read this into my comments. I pointed out the hazards of your "team spirit" analogy and noted some reasons why people are drawn into patriotic team furor.

  ***The current situation is not a game. People will die. We cannot walk out of the stadium after the game is over. The decisions that are made now will affect all of our lives for many years to come.***

  Trite, is not the word for it, more like simplistic wishing that life were different.....you say by the above statement... that we shouldn't have any reason to kill or be killed, make hard life shattering decisions (of which either of us are even remotely involved in), that what someone does over there in the deserts of Afgan should not affect us at all, we should be bigger, better than they. It is not a game?????? Well Ginny just what do you call all this posturting, propaganda, furor of emotions, dieing?

  How you turn my statement that "the current situation is not a game" into meaning that "we shouldn't have any reason to kill or be killed" is beyond my comprehension, Dannybear.

  A game is something people usually do for fun, amusement, recreation. A game usually has few lasting consequences after it is over. Yes, the current situation is reality.

  Then lets face it head on....or we can sit by, posture ourselves into some blissful mental state of 'Buddahlike' transcendental altered state of being, which will allow us to just sit back and 'wait on Jehovah'.....your tone your points all lead me to the conclusion, that Ginny not only did not like the analogy, but really does not want to have any part in THIS GAME.

  You are really incredible, Dannybear. I point out the dangers of a team/game analogy, and you conclude from my tone that I want to sit back and "wait on Jehovah" in Buddhalike transcendence. What nonsense.

  My point was that whatever analogies you choose to think about and grasp this situation will affect the solutions and outcomes you imagine. If the world is like a big sporting competition, there will be winners and losers. If the world is like a human body, we will try to heal it. If it is like a business, we may try mediation and arbitration. If it is like a family, we may try counseling or tough love. I nowhere suggested that we do nothing.

  Ginny