I was talking to this girl the other day about the movie the Da Vinci code. I went and saw the movie and loved it. I had heard for years and years that some people felt that Jesus had and "affair" with Mary Magdeline and had kids with her. The girl I was talking to said that she believed Jesus did have an "affair" with Mary Magdeline and that is why he is crying out to Jehovah while on the cross "Father, Father why have you forsaken me?" She said that Bible translators delibrately change this passage to read like this but it should really read Father, Father, why won't you forgive me." She feels that Jesus was asking Jehovah for forgiveness because he committed a sin. I was wondering should the passage read Father, Father why won't you forgive me. And really what is the difference between forgive and forsake. I must admit I have always wondered about this passage where Jesus is asking Jehovah why is he forsaken him. Even as a JW's I had doubts about this. It is almost as what the girl I was talking to said that Jesus wanted forgiveness. I must admit that JW's and Born Again Christians tend to have a "closed mind" to every thing that goes against what they believe in. I am also including myself because since I have been out I now look at both sides of the coin. I will always love Jehovah and Jesus that won't change but I am not so "dogmatic" as I use to be when I was a JW's.
Did Jesus Christ commit a serious sin and ask Jehovah to forgive him?
by booker-t 11 Replies latest jw friends
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vitty
If I remember correctly the WT explanation, is that Jehovah took away his protecting spirit from Jesus so that he would suffer as a "normal" man and then be able to die. Jesus knew Jehovah had taken away his protection and thats why he asked "Why have you forsaken me?"
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lovelylil
booker t,
Its really hard to say for sure what Jesus exact words were because the recording of them happened so long ago. But personally I believe Jesus called out "why have you forsaken me" because the experience was lasting longer than he thought it might and he might have felt that Jehovah "left" him. I don't believe God did leave Jesus even for a second like the WT says, that is merely their opinion in trying to understand this verse. Because I cannot see God doing that to his son. It would have been bad enough knowing your precious son would die a terrible death but then you would leave him? It would offend my sense of human justice and I don't believe God would have done that. God knew when his son breadth his last breath because he caused the earthquake and darkness to fall and to me this shows he was still near and watching.
Jesus in his time of suffering may have felt forsaken but was not. Jehovah simply chose not to intervene as Christ was supposed to die on the cross and I believe prior to this, Christ knew full well that this would be the case and what it would entail. But knowing we will suffer and then actually doing it are two different things. And I can imagine if it were me up there on the cross I would want the ordeal over as soon as possible and if it drags on, I may also feel that God "left" me in my time of need. To truly understand what Christ was trying to convey though, we would have to be inside his head at the moment and of course we cannot.
I don't believe in the Mary story because I don't see enough evidence of it in scripture. But I don't think it would affect anything either way. Christ came to die for us on the cross for our sins and whether or not he was married would make no difference. Personally though I believe his only "seed" are his spiritual followers.
BTW - the Davinci Code was a great movie. And if you like that book, get Angels and Demons. It came out prior to Davinci Code. Just remember Dan Brown is a fictional writer and does not claim to be anything else. Lilly
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confusedjw
There was that thing with Mary M. - but then again I'm not sure he asked for forgiveness or just savored the memories.
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Amazing
Booker-T,
The DaVinci Code is fascinating fiction. I agree with Lily's comments about why Jesus felt forsaken. Also, some teach that Jesus also felt the Father withdraw his total protection so that for a short time Jesus was on his own. I am not sure of this view, but is is plausible.
Jim Whitney
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Sad emo
Another popular theory is that Jesus was pointing to the prophecy about himself in Psalm 22, which ends in hope and triumph for the suffering one. So in a way it's not a cry of despair but rather a cry of victory.
1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer; and by night, but find no rest.
3 Yet you are holy, enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 In you our ancestors trusted; they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried, and were saved; in you they trusted, and were not put to shame.
6 But I am a worm, and not human; scorned by others, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me; they make mouths at me, they shake their heads;
8 “Commit your cause to the Lord ; let him deliver— let him rescue the one in whom he delights!”
9 Yet it was you who took me from the womb; you kept me safe on my mother’s breast.
10 On you I was cast from my birth, and since my mother bore me you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.
12 Many bulls encircle me, strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
13 they open wide their mouths at me, like a ravening and roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted within my breast;
15 my mouth is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to my jaws; you lay me in the dust of death.
16 For dogs are all around me; a company of evildoers encircles me. My hands and feet have shriveled;
17 I can count all my bones. They stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my clothes among themselves, and for my clothing they cast lots.
19 But you, O Lord , do not be far away! O my help, come quickly to my aid!
20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog!
21 Save me from the mouth of the lion! From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me.
22 I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord , praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him; stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him.
25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the Lord . May your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord ; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him.
28 For dominion belongs to the Lord , and he rules over the nations.
29 To him, indeed, shall all who sleep in the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and I shall live for him.
30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord,
31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, saying that he has done it.
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jaguarbass
Mr. Booker-t and the MG's If you want some other opinions on your topic, here is mine at this time. I have been out of the organization since 83 and its been a wild and crazy trip. For the longest time I echoed your sentiments that I would always love Jehovah and Jesus. But the whole time I was out of the organization I searched for the truth, not the troof. The truth is what lead me to leave the organization. Well I cant say I am any closer to the truth today than I was in 83. I can tell you that the troof of the watchtower society is not one that I will embrace. If you look into quantum physics, the argument can be made that the Jws paradise may come to be in an individuals concious experience, the watchtower paradise could also be described as a hollow heaven, or a personal hell. More on point to your post. After reading the bible cover to cover 5 times and making notes, plus using the resources of the internet in this information age, my opinion is that the bible is not a very reliable publication, not one that I would try to live my life by. Would you try to live your life by the writings of Mark Twain, William Shakespear, Ernest Hemmingway, etc. And I can tell you the bible is full of errors, read it take notes and then google it for confirmatton. Now that your out of the borg, its all about individual responsiblity, theres no more blaming someone else for faulty reasearch for the rest of your life being adversely affected. More to your point. I find there is a large amount of evidence casting doubt that Jesus ever existed. And no one can really explain God, Jehovah or the trinity. So what I see your comments as are someone commenting on the characters reactions in a Shakespearean type play, Fictional characters, any response can be correct, Its just like in English class, any response is correct just put it in proper English with proper sentence and phrase srtucture with complete thoughts and you can get an A. There is no correct answer. As far as trying to translate something from the bible language of 2 thousand years ago into english or whatever your native tounge is forget it. Need proof, try to translate something from modern spanish into modern english, lots of luck. You can get a ball park meaning, but I wouldnt want to bet my life or live my life by it. Further comments, the Davinci code is fiction, the bible is in my opinion fiction, so we have a wash there. More to your point, from a Davinci code perspective, your hypothesis is credible. Personally, I didnt care for the movie, so I will go with the fictional interpretation that Jesus was upset that God was allowing him to die as a human, to suffer death and that was why he felt forsaken. And my interpretation opens another whole can of worms that makes no sense to me. Why God would sacrafice himself to himself and then be upset with himself, and then in all of his apparent confusion expect me to worship him. Of course that was a trinitarian non witness interpretation, Ive been out since 83. Any ways those are some of my opinions on your subject today. Subject to change when the facts change, or my understanding of the facts change.
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Leolaia
Matthew 27:46 (parr.) is a quotation from Psalm 22:1 and is clearly intended as such (cf. Psalm 22:18 as the exegetical basis for Matthew 27:35 parr.). I am very doubtful any Bible scholars who study the text and its history have suggested "Father, Father, why won't you forgive me" as a more original reading, and the Hebrew-Aramaic in the text does not mean this as well. For a better idea of the thought behind "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani", read the whole psalm that is being quoted and consider how it can can inform the way the author is portraying the crucifixion and resurrection.
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lovelylil
Sad emo and Leaolaia - thank you both for those cross references in Psalms. Lilly
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gaiagirl
Just a bit more to add to the comments already made: "Forgive" means to extend mercy towards, or to hold back from punishment, or to cancel a debt which is owed. For example, sometimes JWs might discuss whether Hitler can be forgiven for his extreme sins. (As I recall, the reasoning used to be that since he has died he has paid for all his sins, and gets to start again with a clean slate.) A criminal who knows he is guilty might still ask to be forgiven, so that he doesn't have to go to prison, or even be executed. Or, someone might say, "Never mind about that $10 you owe me." "Forsake" means to turn away from, or abandon. Some wedding vows include a phrase in which each person promises to "forsake" all others partners for their new spouse. Alternatively, a married man might "forsake" his wife and children, and run off and live with someone else, or even by himself. My own take on the scripture in question is that Jesus expected something miraculous to happen, perhaps to be taken bodily to heaven after a certain length of time, or something similar. When time seemed to be dragging on and he could feel himself dying, he asked "Why have you forsaken me?" You are correct, the movie, and the book, are great. There MAY be elements of truth in the story, depending on how much credibility you want to give to some of the source material. I've heard that "Angels and Demons" is in the works as a film now, I hope it is as good.