I mentioned this in passing in a previous post. I think it deserves its own topic. Any takers? - Be prepared for rebuttals.
A Challenge - An Illustration to explain suffering????
by IMHO 15 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JamesThomas
There is suffering because...well, let me back up for a moment.
Look around. There is an infinite, natural, unfolding of phenominal life and universe that is not hindered by judgments of good or bad. This unfolding is continuously on the move and ever changing. What is born, dies. What is young becomes old. What is healthy can become ill, no matter age. Circumstances always change. Friends come, and friends go. This is the natural way of the objective phenominal existence. There is no problem. Phenomena = change.
As you look around, did you notice what is not phenominal, what sees all change, does not change?
There is a pristine pure conscious-awareness which holds, sees and feels all. This untouched purity is our true Identity. Closer than all that is experienced and believed to be. However it generally goes unnoticed and artificially in it's place there comes to be strong identification with the phenominal universe of forms, thoughts and change; and then -- there is suffering.
There is suffering because there is a natural longing for the peace, wholeness and permanence of our true Being; and we seek for it everywhere but in and as our own immediate and intimate Self. We foolishly seek for the changeless in what changes. We long and ache for our natural wholeness, yet continually identify with a broken shared of existence. Suffering, is the natural result of misidentification; and ironically, suffering is often the fuel to awakening to our true Being and Identity. Seems to be the natural and simple way of things. No need for mystical beliefs, or grand drama of gods and demons to complicate and feed the suffering.
It's about clearly seeing what is and always has been real and true.
Be still, and know...
j
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IMHO
That is a very philosophical and Atheistic view of suffering. Life = Suffering. Need I remind you that the Biblical view is that we should not in fact grow old and die or suffer in the meantime. Circumstances do change, friends do come and go but Change ? Suffering You say; “There is suffering because there is a natural longing for the peace, wholeness and permanence of our true Being”. Why do we have this longing, this as you say “natural” longing? Surely because we're living in an “unnatural” way. As far as your statement that “suffering is often the fuel to awakening to our true Being and Identity.”, in some respects I would agree; many, many great artists and musicians have created their finest work out of adversity. That said, I believe the reason most of us cannot tap such creativity is due to our imperfect state from which we can access a mere fraction of our potential abilities, but that is another subject. Suffice to say that being able to awaken our true being and identity is no justification for the suffering that many endure. To clearly see “what is” i.e. suffering; that to all intents and purposes; has always been; is no comfort to those that are enduring chronic pain.
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Narkissos
Welcome IMHO
Life = Suffering.
Not only suffering, but suffering too (imho )
Need I remind you that the Biblical view is that we should not in fact grow old and die or suffer in the meantime.
The JW parabiblical view, that is. Can you point to anyBible text (not your commentary "based" on a patchwork of unrelated "prooftexts") that clearly states that? You'll find some that connect "sin" and "death" (mostly in Paul) but they reach beyond a simple analysis of the "natural" world, opposing it to a new creation (not restoration of a "perfect" original one). Otoh the Bible hardly represents growing old and dying as "unnatural" (think of the Patriarchs). And the connection between "sin" and "suffering" is also criticised sometimes (cf. Job).
Suffice to say that being able to awaken our true being and identity is no justification for the suffering that many endure.
Agreed.
To clearly see “what is” i.e. suffering; that to all intents and purposes; has always been; is no comfort to those that are enduring chronic pain.
How do you know?
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JamesThomas
Why do we have this longing, this as you say “natural” longing?
It is our nature to live true to truth. Living as a broken shard of existence is not our truth; and so there is longing, and there is suffering.
our imperfect state from which we can access a mere fraction of our potential abilities, but that is another subject.
Not another subject at all. Clearly see how there is an unquestioned belief that we are in an "imperfect state". As long as there is no clear seeing of the Perfection that you truly are, there will be great turmoil in fighting to leave the "imperfect state". This "state" you speak of is not real, so there is no way to manipulate it. If you deeply desire to end suffering, then stop giving the "imperfect state" import and significance, as you are only feeding a lie.
Suffice to say that being able to awaken our true being and identity is no justification for the suffering that many endure.
Awaken to reality and there is little need to justify what was never real. You keep wanting to justify, and then so make sense of, and so reinforce and sustain the lie and the suffering.
What I am talking about is a radical investigation into self. Is there a real individual who suffers, or not? If there is none to be found, then suffering is an illusion...fed only by a tenacious death grip on it.
The problem is there is a very strong identification with the suffering little shard. To see it's falsity, is to die. We would rather suffer, than die. Awakening is a death from everything one believes "self" and universe to be. It takes courage.
To clearly see “what is” i.e. suffering; that to all intents and purposes; has always been; is no comfort to those that are enduring chronic pain.
You simply don't know what your talking about. Stop pushing away so nonchalantly the importance of clearly seeing the reality and truth of your Identity. Your turning away from peace and wholeness to remain lost in suffering. You, are the key to the end of suffering. It will not be found anywhere else.
j
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JamesThomas
IMHO, from your posts it looks as you have a strong belief in God. If God has no beginning and no end, what does that make you really?
Trust that there is an underlying wholeness untouched by suffering that just needs to be seen.
j
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kid-A
"What I am talking about is a radical investigation into self. Is there a real individual who suffers, or not? If there is none to be found, then suffering is an illusion...fed only by a tenacious death grip on it."
Just curious, JT, is this an illusion also? Place your hand on a hot burner and you will quickly recognize the true nature of your physical reality. Suffering (whether it be psychological or physical) is ENTIRELY real, leading to depression and/or suicide in many cases. For most people inhabiting reality, fluffy "Jack Handy" ko'ans about the illusion of self and suffering amount to jack squat. Emotions and sentience have physical and chemical correlates and the individual and his/her physical reality creates the self and feelings generated by the self.
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bernadette
Want to share an example of chronic pain from real life
An individual I know who suffers from chronic pain - that only responds partially to the strongest painkillers - is able to endure the pain as a background thing when in a relaxed state. This person when experiencing 'natural' peace and equanimity is able to rise above the pain.
She is forced to do this because she is now unable to take painkillers as they cause abodominal pain and nausea.
Don't know if the above is relevant to the discussion.
bernadette
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bebu
There is suffering because there is a natural longing for the peace, wholeness and permanence of our true Being; and we seek for it everywhere but in and as our own immediate and intimate Self. We foolishly seek for the changeless in what changes. We long and ache for our natural wholeness, yet continually identify with a broken shared of existence. Suffering, is the natural result of misidentification; and ironically, suffering is often the fuel to awakening to our true Being and Identity. Seems to be the natural and simple way of things.
If looking inside ourself for completion were the only thing needful, then it would be part of our natural makeup to be instinctive about this. No one would even need to teach or say a thing about it; it would truly be a universal understanding, much like knowing that when you are hungry, you eat. Why should you even have to explain this to anyone? Isn't it a bit ironic?
Self-reflection and meditation are excellent things and very necessary for living deliberately. But I disagree that searching for wholeness in our natural selves is "the natural and simple way of things". Rather we, are continually being foolish, as you wrote. A glance at the real world quickly shows that in whatever ways self-reflection is practiced in the world, it is almost never done "naturally" by anyone at all. It is a practice that must be taught in the culture.
bebu
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anewme
I no longer believe that we are in an "imperfect state".
I believe we and the world around us is PERFECT.
The suffering just is. As JT observed all that is alive, dies and all that is healthy eventually becomes
unhealthy. There is a cycle involved and all life returns to the ground.
The angst about it all is not shared by everyone.
We have CHOICE and POWER and CONTROL over much of the suffering that goes on. And ultimately we have the intelligence to submit to the GREAT POWER over us all.
To view our suffering as natural and a part of the great plan is to lessen much of our suffering.
Just my thoughts,
Anewme
