Pleeeeaaaaasssseeee????? Pretty please????
I tried to get the CD-ROM download, but it didn't work for me....any tips?
Thanks to anyone who can help!
Can someone post quotes on Jesus only being mediator for 144000?
by megsmomma 24 Replies latest jw friends
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Mary
OK, here's what I found:
w89 8/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers***
Questions From Readers
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Is Jesust he Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind ,since 1Timothy 2:5,6 speaks of him as the "mediator" who "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"?The Bible contains both basic teachings and deep truths, which are solid food for study. One such study involves Jesus Christ’s role as Mediator. The apostle Paul wrote: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.
Does this mean that there is a specific legal sense involved in Jesus’ role as Mediator? Yes. Note Paul’s comment at Hebrews 8:6. After speaking about the tabernacle and other typical representations under the Law covenant, he wrote: "Jesus has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises." The "better covenant" was the new covenant, which replaced the covenant mediated by Moses. (Hebrews 8:7-13) The new covenant was "legally established." It laid the basis for some of Christ’s followers, beginning with the apostles, to gain "entry into the holy place," heaven itself.—Hebrews 9:24; 10:16-19.
Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.
This should help us to understand 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Here the reference to "mediator" was made after the five other occurrences of the word in letters written earlier. Hence, Timothy would have understood Jesus’ mediatorship to be His legal role connected with the new covenant. The Pastoral Epistles, by Dibelius and Conzelmann, acknowledges that at 1 Timothy 2:5 ‘the term "mediator" has a legal significance,’ and "although in this passage, in contrast to Heb 8:6, the [covenant] is not mentioned, one must nevertheless presuppose the meaning ‘mediator of the covenant,’ as the context shows." Professor Oepke observes that 1 Timothy 2:5 presents Jesus as "the attorney and negotiator."
The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.—Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.
Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using "mediator" in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, "attorney") of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice: "He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s."
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w86 2/15 pp.14-15 Unitedly Pursuing the Goal of Life***Just as Moses was "mediator" of the Law covenant with fleshly Israel, so Jesus becomes "mediator of [this] correspondingly better covenant" that God makes with the spiritual "Israel of God." This is in order to ransom those who are called to become Kingdom heirs with Christ. Thus they "receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance." (Galatians 3:19, 20; 6:16; Hebrews 8:6; 9:15; 12:24) It is particularly in this Biblical sense that Christ Jesus serves as the "one mediator between God and men."—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.
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Who, then, may properly partake of the Memorial emblems of the bread and the wine? It is only the group that God takes into the new covenant made over Jesus’ sacrifice. (Psalm 50:5) The purpose of this covenant is to justify Jesus’ 144,000 joint heirs to human life first, so that they may sacrifice this life-right and be taken into the heavenly Kingdom.***
w79 4/1 p.31 Questions from Readers***Questions
from Readers•
Is Jesus the "mediator" only for anointed Christians?The term "mediator" occurs just six times in the Christian Greek Scriptures and Scripturally is always used regarding a formal covenant.
Moses was the "mediator" of the Law covenant made between God and the nation of Israel. (Gal. 3:19, 20) Christ, though, is the "mediator of a new covenant" between Jehovah and spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" that will serve as kings and priests in heaven with Jesus. (Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24; Gal. 6:16) At a time when God was selecting those to be taken into that new covenant, the apostle Paul wrote that Christ was the "one mediator between God and men." (1 Tim. 2:5) Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.
***w79 11/15 p.26 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Men"***
So Jesus Christ in heaven is the Mediator between God and the spiritual Israelites, while these are still in the flesh as men and women........
What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.What I find particularly interesting about the last quote, is that they added to the scripture: [not,all men] to try and justify their bizarre doctrine, yet at the very end of the scripture, it says specifically that Jesus gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.
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megsmomma
Many thanks Mary!! I am thankfull for the research you did for me!!!!!!!
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megsmomma
......."one must nevertheless presuppose the meaning ‘mediator of the covenant"........
Man....their way of writing makes it so confusing to even be able to see the point behind it all. No wonder most dubs don't know what they believe! SHEESH!
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Justitia Themis
I brought this issue up at bookstudy last week. A sister in my cargroup out in service breached the subject yet again today. My cargroup consisted of our Watchtower conductor, his regular pioneer wife, an ex pioneer (whose dad is a CO), another sister and myself. This sister was amazed last week when I pronounced that, according to JW dogma, Jesus is not out mediator. She asked for my proof, and I mailed her the QFR posted in this thread. Interestingly, NO ONE in the car group believes that doctrine is correct,and everyone stated so publicly.
R&F are fast developing the ability to think for themselves. This is the greates challenge the GB will face.
Justitia
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megsmomma
So.....is the general feeling amoung the JW's that you don't need to believe everything they teach? It should be getting interesting when soon, all the supposed people who are covered by Jesus as their mediator are gone, huh? Their doctrine states that theses are neccesary on earth so the great crowd can go through them to gain life. It is really getting tricky.
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Terry
If I were into conspiracy theories I say this is the basis for a good one.
First, Jehovah's Witness doctrine prevents the majority of its members from sharing in Jesus' commanded Lord's Evening Meal. Then, they remove the majority of JW's from having Jesus as a mediator.
By separating the sheep from the shepherd in this insidious way they are vulnerable to being picked off one by one by the ravenous wolves in Brooklyn. The rank and file member is serving, not God, but Brooklyn. The average member is loyal, not to Christ, but Brooklyn and the term "Organization".
JW's are taught their salvation comes from obeying the Watchtower leaders. Nevermind Jesus or Jehovah.
Diabolical!
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choosing life
This is the article that bothered me so much. How can they say that 1 Tim. 2 vs 5 does not apply to all mankind. It says that there is one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. I think that is pretty clear. They are so self absorbed, that they can't even read clear English. There is no wiggle room in this scripture to apply it to them, rather than Christ.
They will have to answer for their self-gorifying ways. To place themselves in Christ's position is so not humble or to be overlooked. Many will come in my name saying they are the Christ (annointed.)
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moggy lover
Oddly enough, it was'nt always so.
The founder of the WTS, CTR, taught, evidently under divine sanction, the very opposite. That in fact Jesus was not the mediator between God and the "Church" as he put it. In the July 15, 1909 WT pg 4437, [ pg numbers arelisted that way in the standardized reprints edition] he affirmed: "The apostle does not here [ie 1Tim 2:5,6] refer to the church but to the world. The Apostle tells us that Jesus is the Mediator between God and the world - men" He reaffirmed this in the Nov 15 WT 1909 pg 4515 this way: "Jesus is the Mediator between God and the world of mankind. The Scriptures foretold a New Covenant between God and Israel, and through Israel, with the world"
Footnote: Remember, under the guiding light of "god" that CTR was led to believe that the natural Jews had a place in the Divine Plan of the Ages, it is through their agency that the "benefits" of Christs Mediatorship flow on to humans as a whole.
What then of the Mediatorship of Christ and the "Church"?.... I mean was'nt Christ their Mediator as well? Nope. Not according to CTR. He made a subtle difference between the word "Mediator" and "Advocate" Here's his [divinely authorized] explanation: "We no longer use the word Mediator in respect to our Lord's various and valuable services for the church,but as our "Advocate with the Father" [July 15 WT 1909 pg 4437]
Then JFR, also claiming "divine light" - only brighter - changed this to say: "It has been said by us that Jesus is the advocate for the church and mediator for the world, but the scriptures do not warrant that conclusion. There is nothing inconsistent in Jesus being the mediator for the church, and also the advocate for the church. In the Heavenly Mt Zion, Jesus both mediates and advocates" April 1 WT 1934 pg 105 - April's Fool's Day maybe?
Apart from the change from CTR's upper case lettering for "Mediator" and "Advocate" J.Hoofer turned the teaching around 180 degrees to say exactly the opposite of what he is supposed to have said 25 years before.
"Make Sure of All Things" said likewise: "Christ is the only Mediator between God and Men" [Subject Heading] pg 68, 109. [published in 1953, revised 1965. This bit did not change, however.]
Then came J.Hoofer's final [?] word on the subject, WT April 1 1979 pg 31. Quoted above. Ever notice how many "flashes of new light" seem to come on this day?
< sigh> the light keeps gettin' brighter and the truth keeps gettin' truer.
[Hey! Is there a song in there or what???]
Cheers
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Mary
Justita said: This sister was amazed last week when I pronounced that, according to JW dogma, Jesus is not out mediator. She asked for my proof, and I mailed her the QFR posted in this thread. Interestingly, NO ONE in the car group believes that doctrine is correct,and everyone stated so publicly.
I remember about 5 or 6 years ago during the CO's visit, he said that "some have left the Truth because they couldn't accept that Jesus wasn't their mediator." I wasn't really paying much attention up until that point, and I thought "WTF? Did I hear that right?" I had absolutely no idea that the WTS even taught this doctrine and I think many Witnesses are also in the dark on this one. It's just bullshit and is probably one of the clearest instances of the Governing Body "twisting the scriptures" to suit their own agenda. Then again, they also unofficially teach that the NT was only written for the "annointed", not for the "Great Crowd". Of course, there is absolutely no scriptural evidence for this insane teaching, but that's never stopped them before. I'm glad to hear that no one in your car group accepted this......perhaps it will make some of them stop and think.
R&F are fast developing the ability to think for themselves. This is the greatest challenge the GB will face.
Yes.....imagine having a group of people being able to think for themselves. Oooooh the scandal!!!