... following on from badboys post above - did they work out when Jesus was conceived from what's recorded in Luke's Gospel about when Zechariah was doing his priestly Temple duty or something - the Day of Atonement which would have been around September?
XMAS AND XMAS TREES OF PAGAN ORIGIN? POSSIBLY NOT!
by badboy 44 Replies latest jw friends
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sunshineToo
It's still related to sun god. Isn't that pagan?
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Kenneson
Sunshine too,
Yes, the sun god is pagan, but then, Jesus isn't. Few people remember the sun god on Dec. 25; a lot more remember Jesus.
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Leolaia
There is a lesson in the story of Hanukkah. This is a festival that celebrates the rededication of the Temple in 165 BC following its three-year desecration by King Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who erected a heathen altar at the site where the daily Tamid sacrifices had been given (cf. Daniel 8:13-14, 9:27, 11:31, 1 Maccabees 1:54, 2 Maccabees 6:2-3), it was atop this altar that swine were sacrificed to Zeus Olympios (= Baal-Shamayn), who Antiochus IV had identified himself with. It was "on the 25th day of the ninth month, Chislev, in the year one hundred and forty-eight [= 165 BC]" that the altar of holocausts was rededicated (1 Maccabees 4:52), and "this day of the purification of the Temple fell on the very day on which the Temple had been profaned by foreigners, on the 25th of the same month, Chislev" (2 Maccabees 10:5). According to 1 Maccabees 1:54, 59, the heathen altar (called the "abomination of desolation" by the Jews) was erected on Chislev 15, and the first sacrifice was offered on Chislev 25.
Since the Temple was rededicated on the very same day that it had been defiled (i.e. Chislev 25, the third anniversary of its desecration), the date of Hanukkah itself has a "pagan origin" since it was the date chosen by the Syrian King Antiochus to dedicate the Temple to Zeus Olympios. This, in fact, was the day after the winter solstice; in 168 BC, the winter solstice fell on Saturday, December 24 at 6:33am, and Chislev 1 started with the new moon on December 1, making Chislev 25 fall on Sunday, December 25th, 168 BC. This was the same day that the later Dies Natalis Solis Invicti ("birthday of the unconquered Sun") fell on in the fourth century AD, and this festival appears to have Syrian origins through the third-century AD emperor Elgabalus. Interestingly, Antiochus identified himself with Baal-Shamayn which was a solarized deity, and the offerings were presented at the Temple on the king's birthday (cf. 2 Maccabees 6:7), suggesting that the king's birthday was celebrated on Chislev 25 -- the same day the sun-god had its birthday in the later practice. Moreover, Hannukah has long been suspected of having a winter solstice origin, as it falls close to the date of the solstice and because its observance is centered around lights -- which is appropriate for the longest night of the year.
So it is interesting that the pagan connotations of Chislev 25 did not prevent the Jews from rededicating the Temple on that day and to celebrate every day a festival on that day....rather, the rededication changed the meaning of that day, in a similar way that Christianity changed the meaning of December 25 from the earlier solar festival (the holiday itself was patterned after the Feast of Tabernacles, cf. 2 Maccabees 1:9). And we know from John 10:22-23 that there was an early tradition about Jesus observing Hanukkah at the Temple, in fact at the "portico of Solomon" which was believed to be the only portion of the First Temple still standing (cf. Josephus, Bellum Judaicum 5.5.1, and the discussion by James VanderKam), and which reflects the lectionary reading from 1 Kings 7:40-50 which was read during Hanukkah according to the Babylonian Talmud. The implications of Jesus observing Hanukkah (as he or his disciples observe the other Jewish feasts in John, cf. 2:13, 7:2-11, 11:55-57, 13:29, etc.) however is lost on the Society.
Edit: In 2005, Chislev 25 fell on December 25th (the first day of Hannukah) and just like in 168 BC, the new moon starting the month occurred on Thursday, December 1 (with the winter solstice occurring on December 21).
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lovelylil
Christians do not base the date December 25 on any Pagan festival. Christian beliefs are based upon Judaism not paganism and as Leolaia already brought out the date December 25 was the festival of lights aka Feast of Dedication. Jesus apparently also participated in this festival as he was in the temple area during that feast. (John 10:22).
The WT idea that we should not observe any day that God did not command us to observe goes out the window with this feast. As there is no OT command from God to celebrate it and yet the Jews decided to observe it as a feast day anyway.
Anyway, the date of Dec. 25 was picked due to this day being the festival of lights and the lighting of the xmas tree is a reminder to us that Christ is the True Light of the World! Lilly
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PaNiCAtTaCk
Are not the exchanging of rings on the wedding day also pagan? No matter what day you choose to do something, some pagan has done something on that day, BIG DEAL! Who cares. No matter what we do, pagans have already done it. Eat, sleep, $hit, they have already done it. Are those things wrong also?
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PopeOfEruke
Great thread everyone!
It's the same with brithdays - "Well in the Bible only bad things happened at birthdays so True Christians TM should not celebrate birthdays...."
Well what about fatty King Eglon! He got stabbed while sitting on the crapper!
Does that mean True Christians TM should not have bowel movements because of this Biblical warning??
How can True Christians TM eat at Taco Bell and still keep this Biblical command?
Pope
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Poztate
How did Rutherford feel about toasting..........HIC...Ya, but it wasn't endorsed by the WTB&TS's drunken leader by 1935 so therefore it's still wrong, wrong, wrong.......
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badboy
IT IS SURMISED BY SOME THAT HE WAS BORN ABOUT 1 OCTOBER because john the baptist's father WAS OF THE ORDER OF ABIJAH AND JOSEPHUS SAYS THEY SERVED IN APRIL(THEREABOUTS), so therefore JESUS WAS BORN ABOUT OCTOBER 1!
ONE CHRISTIAN APLOLOGIST CLAIMS THAT IT SAID IN ROMAN CENSUS RECORDS THAT JESUS WAS BORN ON CHRISTMAS DAY(SO I UNDERSTAND).
WASN'T CHISLEV/KISLEV NOVEMBER?
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TopHat
I think the shape of the Xmas tree is suppose to represent the trinity