XMAS AND XMAS TREES OF PAGAN ORIGIN? POSSIBLY NOT!

by badboy 44 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Sad emo

  john the baptist's father WAS OF THE ORDER OF ABIJAH AND JOSEPHUS SAYS THEY SERVED IN APRIL(THEREABOUTS), so therefore JESUS WAS BORN ABOUT OCTOBER 1!

  Maybe slightly muddled there.

  If John the Baptist's birth was announced to Zechariah in April, that would mean that Jesus was conceived in October (because the angel told Mary that Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant).

  So that would mean that Jesus was born in July. (And it would definitely have been warm enough for the shepherds to be out in the fields with their sheep then - so that makes sense too).

  Ahhh, but Christmas just isn't the same without snow is it?!
• 

  Leolaia

  IT IS SURMISED BY SOME THAT HE WAS BORN ABOUT 1 OCTOBER because john the baptist's father WAS OF THE ORDER OF ABIJAH AND JOSEPHUS SAYS THEY SERVED IN APRIL(THEREABOUTS), so therefore JESUS WAS BORN ABOUT OCTOBER 1!

  No, it's quite a bit more complicated than that. The order of Abijah was the 8th course (1 Chronicles 24:10; cf. Josephus, Antiquities 7.14.7), which would serve first either in the 8th week of the year or the 9th week (during years in which Nisan 1 falls on a sabbath), but each order serves two courses a year (depending on how the year is reckoned), so the order of Abijah would serve again in the 33rd or 34th week of the year...and how these weeks correspond to calendar days depends on the type of calendar used (4Q320-324 in the Dead Sea Scrolls give numerous synchronisms between the priestly cycles and the lunisolar and solar calendars, e.g. the 2nd day of Abijah is the 30th day of the lunar month and the 25th day of the 8th solar month). Roughly speaking, the course of Abijah would occur at the end of the month of Iyyar and again during the month of Marchesvan, and what Gregorian calendar date this would correspond to depends on the sabbatical cycle and the Metonic/intercalary cycle. The month of Iyyar falls sometime overlapping April-May in the Gregorian calendar and the month of Marchesvan corresponds to October-November.

  So if Luke 1:8-10 pertains to the first course of Abijah, and if Mary is construed as having conceived Jesus in the 6th month of Elizabeth's pregnancy (v. 26-38), which did not start until after Zechariah finished his priestly service (v. 23-24), then the time of Elizabeth's conception would correspond very roughly to early Sivan (= May-June), Mary's conception six months later would roughly correspond to early Chislev (= November-December), and the birth of Jesus nine months later would roughly date to early Elul (= August-September). On the other hand, if it is the second course that is alluded to in v. 8-10, then Elizabeth's conception would correspond to early Chislev (= November-December), Mary's conception would correspond to early Sivan (= May-June), and Jesus birth would occur around Adar (= February-March). Of course, there is much room for ambiguity...the text does not indicate how much time has elapsed between Zechariah's return home and Elizabeth's pregnancy, nor does it indicate when "in her sixth month" Mary conceived Jesus, and it is not clear whether the author himself had any distinct concept of the time of year of Jesus' birth. The tradition about the shepherds in the fields (Luke 2:8) would point to a time roughly between Nisan and early Marchesvan, so late Elul or Tishri would fit best, but the other possibility is not ruled out either ... particularly if the birth is reckoned as falling on Adar II in an intercalary year (= March-April). I think the data is much too indistinct to be dogmatic, and I am skeptical that the data themselves are historical in nature (compare with Matthew and Luke's use of Josephus and OT exegetical traditions, particularly those of 1 Samuel).

  APLOLOGIST CLAIMS THAT IT SAID IN ROMAN CENSUS RECORDS THAT JESUS WAS BORN ON CHRISTMAS DAY(SO I UNDERSTAND).

  This is BS, there are no "Roman census records," much less any contemporary records of Jesus.

  WASN'T CHISLEV/KISLEV NOVEMBER?

  November-December, and how it synchronizes with the Gregorian calendar depends on the lunisolar cycle. This year, Chislev 1 corresponds to November 21-22 and last year the same day occurred on December 1-2. In 2004, Chislev 1 fell on November 14-15. So it can vary quite a great deal when reckoned by the Gregorian calendar.
• 

  Gill

  What a liberating thread!!!!

  Thanks everyone!

  I am losing more and more of the Watchtower crap with every thread I read on this board!

  I'm off to move the Christmas tree inside (since we grow ours out in the garden all year, and it comes in 'for a treat'!) I wonder if it minds?
• 

  PopeOfEruke

  I agree! This thread is great!

  I have a BEAUTIFUL little XMAS tree in my rumpus room! Its beautiful!!

  Pope
• 

  truthsearcher

  I might try and share some Christmas information with the active JWs that I meet with to discuss the Bible.

  What would the Jws think of this: the Christmas tree is considered a Christian symbol not a pagan symbol by society. Here was an article on AOL:

  TORONTO (CP) - A Toronto judge has ordered the removal of a Christmas tree from the lobby of a provincial courthouse, sparking widespread anger among court staff. Justice Marion Cohen ordered the decorated tree removed Monday from the lobby of the Ontario Court of Justice to an out-of-the-way corridor on grounds it is a Christian symbol that alienates people of other creeds and traditions.

  In a letter to staff Tuesday, she defended the order while acknowledging "that many people are upset with my decision."

  "I am aware the Christmas tree has been placed in the front lobby at Christmas time for many years," Cohen wrote.

  "I do not think it appropriate that when the clients of our court enter our courthouse, the first thing they see is a Christian symbol. The message to the many non-Christians, who attend our court and are confronted with this symbol, is that they are not part of this institution. It does not belong to them. They are different."

  The tree, a small artificial plant decorated in lights, blue bunting and ornaments, has been relegated to a side corridor near administrative offices.

  "A lot of people are ticked off," said one worker who didn’t want to be named.

  "It’s been here for years," said another.

  While staff were too shy to go on the record, public visitors had more than a few strong words about the judge’s decision.

  "I think it’s pretty stupid," said April St. Amour. "A Christmas tree is a Canadian tradition."

  "Whether people are Christian or not, they should leave it."

  Brendan Crawley, spokesman for the Ministry of the Attorney General, said Cohen is a local judge in charge of the administration of that particular courthouse.

  "There’s no overall court or ministry policy that addresses this situation," Crawley said. "Each courthouse has a certain amount of latitude to make local decisions on matters pertaining to local administration."

  The Christmas tree is no stranger to battles of political correctness. While the Christmas tree still stands near Toronto city hall, bureaucrats created an uproar in 2002 when they tried to rename it a "holiday tree."

  Last year, a spokesman for the governor general created a one-day firestorm by announcing that Michaelle Jean would light a "holiday tree" — an error quickly corrected the following day.

  12-14-06 13:54 EST
• 

  badboy

  THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR REPLIES!

  GILL,IT GOOD TO KNOW WHAT RUBBISH WT PUTS OUT!
• 

  codeblue

  Wikipedia confirms this as fact too:

  IN FACT SATURNALIA WAS CELEBRATED 17 DECEMBER TO 23 DECEMBER

  Geez, feel the WTBS lied again, they said Saturnalia was Dec. 25th!
• 

  Leolaia

  BTW, one should not confuse the festivals of Saturnalia and Sol Invictus. It was the latter that was (at least erstwhile) associated with 25 December. And many years prior to Aurelian's revival of Sol Invictus in AD 274, Hippolytus (c. 160 -235 BC) had already declared that the date of Jesus' birth was on a.d.VIII.Kal.Jan., i.e. 25 December (Commentarium in Danielem, 4.23). I don't know if the Society has ever mentioned this fact, but this undermines their assumption that the date was adopted from the Roman Sol Invictus observance.
• 

  Sirona

  This could be of interest - http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/16572/1.ashx

  Sirona
• 

  anewme

  Last night I googled or yahoosearched ST. Nicolas.
  I was surprised and delighted by the info.
  
  There was a very kind man named Nicolas who lived was born around 280 to wealthy parents who died leaving him a huge inheritance. He was deeply moved by the life and example of Jesus Christ and so gave away his entire inheritance to charity and helped poor young women and children and anyone else in his village who needed it.
  He joined the priesthood. His popularity moved the townsfolk to beg the pope that he become their bishop. The pope agreed and soon Nicolas was appointed bishop. This same Nicolas is noted as attending the council of Nicea in 325. He later was imprisoned and executed as a Christian martyr on Dec. 8.
  The Catholic church declared Nicolas a saint. He remains one to this day despite the removal of many so called saints in 1968.
  Europe celebrates his death and life of charity on Dec. 8.
  
  Read it for yourself. It is very moving and interesting. It will make you proud to remember such a Christlike man as Nicolas.
  
  
  Anewme