An Abortion question, a Christian paradox?

by free2beme 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    The problem is that Christians have become soft and corrupted over the last few centuries. Hell, during the Crusades the Christians would capture the babies of non-believers, baptize them and then immediately crush their sculls to ensure they went to heaven.

    Think about it for a moment... according to the logic outlined in the bible, this IS the most loving and compassionate thing they could do! Killing infants guarantees them an eternity in paradise while sparing them the harshness of life on earth. That's a hell of a deal when you think about it!

    Now look at the Muslims... those guys are the TRUE believers! They'll lop your head off of you even think about Allah the wrong way.

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan
    It's a shame that they wind up focusing on this instead of the real world ramifications and considerations of such a dilemma.

    In spite of all the talk about heaven and hell, what fundies really want is the same as what everyone else wants, whether they're completely conscious of it or not, and that is, for the human race to survive into the future indefinitely and enjoy happiness and prosperity in doing so.

    So really, the anti-abortion stance isn't about being saved, or whatever. It's about having an unshakeable gut feeling that the human race cannot morally (and therefore physically) survive, among other things, the normalization of the extermination of fetuses; that such a practice is morally corrosive to society and radically undermines the most basic assumptions of a Judeo-Christian outlook, the outlook upon which so much of our shared culture is based. And I for one wouldn't disagree completely with such reasoning. But ultimately what people need in our age is articulate, secular reasons why abortion is bad for society, not scare tactics. That's so middle-ages.

    Then again, articulate, secular reasons tend to smack of utilitarianism, which isn't the most appealing base for a moral philosophy either. *sigh*

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo
    If this is the case. What if a child was not aborted, was born, grew up to become a Hitler, or a Charles Manson and ended up going to hell. Would you not be doing such a soul, a favor to abort it? As maybe these people became what they ended up becoming, because of a terrible life in a unloving household, and would never have been this way and would have received a heavenly reward, had they never been born.

    You wouldn't know that this is what they would become though would you? So how could you make the call on such a decision? I reckon you'd love the radio presenter, James Whale (?sp), he holds the view that boys should be sterilised at a very early age and only get the op reversed once they have been certified as capable of being good, responsible parents!!

    I question your seeming generalisation that bad people only come from unloving households too - bad people can come from anywhere. Likewise, good, successful people can come from the most unloving households, some of us here are good examples of this

    On the religious aspect, what if Hitler or whoever repented in a split second just before he died and he's now in Heaven?

    Another, not entirely unconnected thought I've been toying with over the last few days is what if Hitler was doing God's will - would God still send him to Hell? How can He punish someone for doing His will?

    No answer to your question - just putting some fuel on the fire!!

  • free2beme
    free2beme

    Here is a sad fact about children born to unloving parents, or in an unwanted situation. As much as we might want to think there is a line up of people wanting to adopt. That is not the case. Adopting is hard, expensive and very time consuming. More and more unwanted children are filling our foster care system and leading these children to be rebellious and angry and not happy about being alive. That too, could lead to someone who may act out and do something worthy of punishment by the Christian God too, right?

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo
    More and more unwanted children are filling our foster care system and leading these children to be rebellious and angry and not happy about being alive. That too, could lead to someone who may act out and do something worthy of punishment by the Christian God too, right?

    It could yes but not necessarily.

    Social background may have some influence in a person's life course but I don't believe there are definitive outcomes. It's down to the individual's reaction to their circumstances - they can be/stay angry or they can make the decision to 'fight back' against the raw deal they've had and become very stable members of society.

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    "But ultimately what people need in our age is articulate, secular reasons why abortion is bad for society, not scare tactics."

    OK, I'll bite.....what is a secular reason why abortion is bad for society? The benefits of abortion have already been demonstrated quite conclusively:

    http://www.slate.com/id/33569/entry/33571/

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    The question from a christian point of view isn't about the unborn child's future life choices its about you personally killing. Everyone of us is only one action away from being a Hitler or a Mother Theresa but having that ability to make the decision is what this life is for - who are we to kill in order to make our own life easier ( I do however, accept abortion as an option where the mother's life is at risk because no one has the right to force another to risk life for another.)

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    Kid-A, good interesting link but I wouldn't say that it was conclusive proof - you only need to look at the dialogue between the two guys to see there is still room for reasonable debate.

    What did you think of Steve Sailor's comments on p4 btw?

    This comment is similar to what I've said in my previous posts:

    The widespread assumption that your theory must be correct reveals just how many people deep down believe, whether they admit it publicly or not, that "certain people" are just permanently more incorrigible than others. As a contender for the World's Least Politically Correct Human, I'm sympathetic. It's ironic, but because I've been arguing for years that genetic diversity affects society, I was one of the few to notice in this particular case that crime has risen and fallen not because we are aborting the poor and black and unwanted, but because of that staple of genteel liberal commentary, Cultural Forces (e.g., crack).
  • Schism
    Schism

    I always thought it was because the Bible mentions god seeing a baby being formed in the womb.

    I always wondered why JWs were so anti-choice when they clearly believe that any baby who dies in the womb won't be resurrected, and that only someone who has breathed air could be remembered for resurrection. Wouldn't that mean that Jehovah actually doesn't care about fetuses until they are born? Yet, you would get DFed for taking a morning after pill and possibly desrupting a sperm in an egg (which is not a pregnancy until implantation). How ridiculous is that? To put dividing cells before the happiness of a grown human is so cruel. They can sure find a way to make people resentful of reproduction.

    In my opinion, no one should follow the Bible in this situation. It's such a major life decision. There are enough orphans and unloved kids in this world already.

  • free2beme
    free2beme

    As for doing what is right in society, I do not know how that is truly answered with abortion. While I strongly agree that we should not be happy about killing any life. It is also a fact in our society that we are suffering from over population. Something that can not be ignored, when we realize how many more people would exist today without abortions being performed. I have never felt that we should fight abortion as the solution to the problem. I think we should put more money into sex education to the young, free condoms being handed out, and perhaps teaching personal responsibility as normal.

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