Do you understand the ransom? (page 2)

Gregor

"Jesus' vicarious death can be explained through a number of distinct metaphors: expiation sacrifice, propitiation sacrifice, passover lamb, act of intercession, substitutive punishment, redemption, ransom, etc. The very diversity of (strictly) mutually exclusive metaphors, sometimes by the same authors, should prevent the reader from considering any of them as more than a metaphor among others, i.e. as THE true and final explanation."

Yeah, that's it. Rubbing alcohol and maybe some very good weed.

avidbiblereader

Yes I do to what extent my finite mind can. As the scriptures bear out

1 Cor 2:16 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.

Romans 5:7-10

7 For hardly will anyone die for a righteous [man]; indeed, for the good [man], perhaps, someone even dares to die. 8 But God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more, therefore, since we have been declared righteous now by his blood, shall we be saved through him from wrath. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we became reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, now that we have become reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It doesn't make sense to us because it is a level of love that we cannot imagine, the Bible says God doesn't posses love He IS love. I see the ransom as the Bible says, believe in it and recieve salvation. It is compared to the signal pole in Moses day and the Isrealites just had to believe and look up and believe that it would save them. The message of the gospel is simple, religion and the witnesses in particular have bogged it down with legalistic demands, reminds me of the Pharisees, when Jesus said they bind heavy loads on the people but were not willing to bear them themselves.

The Bible is simple, love God and Christ, love your neighbor as yourself, trust in the blood of Jesus and do your best that you can. God already knows as His children on earth, we had the entire deck of cards stacked against us, there never was a chance to win on our own, that is why He did what He did. It is love beyond what anyone of us would be willing or capable of doing. That is why it is a free gift and He is God.

sinis

Funny how the ransom is only mentioned in gross detail through the Pauline epistles. The ransom make absolutely no sense. Neither does the Universal Soverignty issue which spawned the need for a ransom.

So I'm almighty god. A son or lessor god challenges me, and says he can rule better than I. I say ok, we will play a game. If you win I will give you everything and go off, banished in shame, leaving the human race under your control. Yet at the same time I tell you that I have a seed that will destroy you and you will ultimately lose. You cannot win. So here we are back to square one. Who wins? Who loses? We all lose, including Satan!

To get a grasp of how far fetched that whole idea is, lets put it in modern terms. I dislike how Pres Bush runs the country. So I go to the White House and tell him I can rule better than he. He says, lets play the game. If I win he will turn the country over to me, a lessor, a nobody. He then tells me he will use his office power to make sure that I lose. This is after the stakes have been laid out. I win he leaves, I lose I go to jail forever and eventually will be executed. I still agree to the terms, silly me!

If this does not change your mind, how about this? Why would an ominiscent god even stup down to a lessor god and play the game? Why would he hold ALL men and their descendants accountable for something one man did?! How on earth could one man buy all this back? Thats like getting mad at your son and telling him to appease my wrath to go sacrifice the family dog outback, only then will I be appeased.

It is so ridicules to even fathom such a gross concept.

So Jesus dies, even if he was the ransom, where are the benefits? We still die. There is no kingdom on earth, etc.

What is even funnier is how the christian ransom doctrine is extremely close and related in many parts to pagan concepts of redemption. gee you think that have been where Paul pulled this stuff out of? Maybe along with pulling stuff out his ass? He was a freakin' Sadducee, and expounded on Jewish Sadducee concepts.

sinis

The Bible is simple, love God and Christ, love your neighbor as yourself, trust in the blood of Jesus and do your best that you can. God already knows as His children on earth, we had the entire deck of cards stacked against us, there never was a chance to win on our own, that is why He did what He did. It is love beyond what anyone of us would be willing or capable of doing. That is why it is a free gift and He is God.

And what, its not easier to say you are forgiven? The gospels focus on words, not deeds. Didn't jesus show numerous times that it was easier to forgive someone over doing extreme rituals? Did not jesus overturn the money changers in the temple yelling out that his father wanted mercy not sacrifice? So why the conflict? So god knew from the beginning that we didn't have a chance in hell? Gee, thats a god I want to follow. Sounds alot like predestination. Jesus spilled blood does what?! Nothing, its a pipe dream made up by Paul, borrowed from the Jewish and Pagan religions of the time.

reneeisorym

I happen to beling to mainstream Christianity and I'll explain it how we believe it. It seems to make much more sense this way.

First off, Jesus is God (Lets not debate trintiy -- just makes a difference in this explination)

We are all sinners. We are imperfect and sin many times. As sinners we can not ever deserve eternal life.

God is love, but God is also just and therefore must punish sin.

There seems to be a problem and this problem is solved through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. (Like if your child committed a horrible crime and you could take the punishment of death so that he/she could live -- you would be demonstrating an intense amount of love for that child).

The only way that Christ died for Adam's sin is that the sin we all have is due to Adam. So, Christ died for Adam's sin which we all have.....

sinis

I happen to beling to mainstream Christianity and I'll explain it how we believe it. It seems to make much more sense this way.
First off, Jesus is God (Lets not debate trintiy -- just makes a difference in this explination)
We are all sinners. We are imperfect and sin many times. As sinners we can not ever deserve eternal life.
God is love, but God is also just and therefore must punish sin.
There seems to be a problem and this problem is solved through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins. (Like if your child committed a horrible crime and you could take the punishment of death so that he/she could live -- you would be demonstrating an intense amount of love for that child).
The only way that Christ died for Adam's sin is that the sin we all have is due to Adam. So, Christ died for Adam's sin which we all have.....

I'm sorry but this is so far fetched. Why would god need to die for us - he's almighty, right? Also, he really didn't die, right? Unless he is gone from the universe completely, never to be present again. In your terms, it would work like this: Kidnappers take my son and demand $100,000 for his release. I give them the $100,000, get my son back, and then print $100,000 on my money machine at home. So basically I did not lose anything.

Did you know that up until a couple of hundred years ago the official church teaching was that god tricked satan. Originally satan was supposed to get jesus' soul as payment. Satan agreed to the terms put god pulled a fast one and resurrected his son leaving Satan to hold an empty bag. Funny how christanity has changed their doctrine since.

OUTLAW

Jesus died for our sins and we have a bunch on credit..Now whenever I sin I just go to the Jesus atm Machine..Put in my Jesus Mastercard,and have Jesus pay the bill...OUTLAW

nicolaou

I'm way too lazy to repost what I've said before about the idiocy of the ransom doctrine so I'll just shamelessly bump my old topic - Does the Ransom Sacrifice doctrine add up?

reneeisorym

Also, he really didn't die, right? Unless he is gone from the universe completely, never to be present again. In your terms, it would work like this: Kidnappers take my son and demand $100,000 for his release. I give them the $100,000, get my son back, and then print $100,000 on my money machine at home. So basically I did not lose anything.

So if I chop off your finger and they sew it back on, I didn't really hurt anything?

I'm sorry but this is so far fetched. Why would god need to die for us - he's almighty, right?

The official answer would be "to preserve justice" --

However it is that he chose to provide a way for us to get to heaven, I'm just glad he did it. If God makes rules and that means he wants to follow them too .. whatever... He's God. He can do what he wants to.

I wonder sometimes if he just wanted to see what it was like to be fully human so he decided to be a sacrifice and keep the justice rule alive. Maybe we'll get it once we get to heaven?

james_woods

There is (for me at least) also a problem with the pseudo-cannibilistic aspects of "drinking the blood and eating the flesh". It has always struck me as more than a little odd, even if you don't think the wine and the wafer really transmogrify in your mouth like a good Catholic does.

It is amazing to me that millions of people just take this whole ransom thing with total credulity, and apparantly never thought through all of the implications of its true meaning.

Many such would probably find such reasoning on the subject (as we are engaging in here) as sheer blasphemy, although I cannot understand why.

Not to say, of course, that I do not find many aspects of Christian teaching to be an attractive philosophy. I just have a problem with the whole "human sacrifice" issue and the ethics associated with this.

Do you understand the ransom?

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