The Sorrow and the Pity of the Watchtower: denial of DUE PROCESS

by Terry 30 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • TheScarletPimpernel
    TheScarletPimpernel

    Unfortunately, the problem of due process is inherent in all religions, not just fundamentalist ones like Jehovah's Witnesses. Terry's "invisible gun" is not only held by the Society, but by almost every God since the concept's advent.

    For example, Yahweh puts the invisible gun to heads of all Christians with the threat of Armageddon. When it comes (teehee!), if you haven't been doing what he says, you're toast. Probably eternally burning toast too. That aspect of the theology removes the possibility of free will. God says "My way or I'll kill you. Maybe not today, but I'm definitely gonna get you."

    As Narkissos noted, due process arose in human institutions out of a power struggle, recognizing that every human can err in judging fairness. In religions, God holds the power, so no struggle, no recognition that God's rules might be unfair, or unfairly applied, thus no due process. His instruments do his work, and if you don't like it, well you certainly can leave the religion--unless you lived in the Middle Ages, where they'd burn you at the stake.. :(

    A religious organization that isn't directly controlled by God cannot, by its very nature, be fair. The self-evident lack of any fair religion simply increases the already overwhelming probability that God just isn't there to make sure things are being done right.

    A great topic Terry!

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    I went thru the gamut of emotions over the need for reform, starting several years ago when I realized the Truth was not the truth.

    After awhile, I came to realize the organization can't be reformed. The problems run deep. They are systemic. It would take a massive overhaul, an unlikely number of big steps, and a very long time for this group to reform itself.

    The dubs' current strategy is what I call "virtual mainstreaming." That is, they give the public appearance of moving towards the religious center on the one hand while on the other they keep tightening the screws on their members.

  • Mikeus
    Mikeus

    " For example, Yahweh puts the invisible gun to heads of all Christians with the threat of Armageddon. When it comes (teehee!), if you haven't been doing what he says, you're toast. Probably eternally burning toast too. That aspect of the theology removes the possibility of free will. God says "My way or I'll kill you. Maybe not today, but I'm definitely gonna get you. " This is going off topic, but my view on Hell is that it's an affirmation of free will. If you reject God in this life, either directly or indirectly, God will respect your free choice and not force you to spend eternity with Him. You might say that Heaven would be a hell to someone who wants nothing to do with God.

  • Terry
    Terry
    This is going off topic, but my view on Hell is that it's an affirmation of free will. If you reject God in this life, either directly or indirectly, God will respect your free choice and not force you to spend eternity with Him. You might say that Heaven would be a hell to someone who wants nothing to do with God.

    Here is how I look at this.

    By definition God is so transcendantly superior to mankind it is clear we could use some real equalization.

    We were created the way this God wanted us to be: inferior. Why? If you are a craftsman or artist that makes things that break easily it is a reflection on your ability.

    The usual cop-out is that mankind has this peculiar thing called "free-will." Free from what?

    We are still told exactly what to do and what not. We aren't free. We cannot choose our genetic makeup, our tendencies, our deficiencies or the social and educational enviornment in which we are born. We do the best we can with what we have and none of us has ever had perfect information without bias.

    On the basis of what we are and how little we know that is confirmable fact---why should we be punished irrevocably for wrong limited choices?

    It is not as though there is only one view of God or gods. It is not as though there is only one Christianity with one doctrinal unity agreed upon by all. Never has been! There was no unified opinion about Judaism either.

    All the religious voices throughout history have been making guesses based on their limited understanding which itself is based on opinion and heart's desire.

    Humanity is not making an EITHER/OR choice about anything pertaining to god or worship.

    Are we to conclude God could not make us equal to himself? In that case we would truly have had the power and freedom to CHOOSE. Was this God afraid of such equality and choosing?

    No. I have to conclude it is all a great projection from our imagination and desire. I don't think anybody is out there to reward or punish us.

    If there were; it would be the grossest miscarriage of justice.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    Terry said:

    "We were created the way this God wanted us to be: inferior. Why? If you are a craftsman or artist that makes things that break easily it is a reflection on your ability.

    The usual cop-out is that mankind has this peculiar thing called "free-will." Free from what?"

    You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. you were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering: the sardis, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes was prepared for you on the day you were created. You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. (Ezekiel 28:12-15)

    we were made in the image of God and the angels...God made man beautiful in the beginning to reflect His glory...

    Free from what?...Revelation 4:11...

    love michelle

    p.s. Ecclesiastes 12:6-7...what does your spirit look like?..look intently at your reflection to see what image you refract...

  • uninformed
    uninformed

    Thanks Terry,

    Great thread.

    Honesty--good pic.

    Brant

  • Terry
    Terry

    The dubs' current strategy is what I call "virtual mainstreaming." That is, they give the public appearance of moving towards the religious center on the one hand while on the other they keep tightening the screws on their members.

    REMOTE CONTROL.

    The men in charge are becoming more and more hidden from view by burying themselves in layers.

    To get at them is nigh impossible because they are erasing their footprints.

    I'm thinking about what eventually happened to Howard Hughes. He hired only Mormons because he trusted them.

    Pretty soon his neurotic mental state made him unable to relate to the reality of running his empire. But, things went smoothly anyway. How? Layers and layers of rituals had been put between Hughes and the outside world. His minions ran everything by remote control.

    Each layer of personnel only answered to the ones above them. Everybody thought Hughes was the boss. He wasn't. He was a crippled neurotic. It was a chain of command which ran everything. Only Hughes' right hand man really knew the truth. Maheu, was his name. Before Maheu it was Noah Deitrich. The power behind the throne.

    So it is with the Faithful and Discreet Slave and the Governing Body. Few JW's have clear in their mind exactly who does what. It is a vague and amorphous concept made even fuzzier as each year goes by.

    But, you can be certain, there are only crippled neurotics at the top.

    wikipedia:
    A subsequent autopsy noted kidney failure as the cause of death. Hughes was in extremely poor physical condition at the time of his death. X-rays revealed broken-off hypodermic needles still embedded in his arms and severe malnutrition. The first doctor to examine him diagnosed the cause of Hughes' death as neglect. He argued that Hughes' Mormon constituents and guards allowed and even promoted his demise and eventual death. While his kidneys were damaged, his other internal organs were deemed perfectly healthy.
  • TopHat
    TopHat
    Thescarletpimernil

    Unfortunately, the problem of due process is inherent in all religions, not just fundamentalist ones like Jehovah's Witnesses. Terry's "invisible gun" is not only held by the Society, but by almost every God since the concept's advent.

    Unfortunately, the problem of due process is inherent in all religions, not just fundamentalist ones like Jehovah's Witnesses. Terry's "invisible gun" is not only held by the Society, but by almost every God since the concept's advent.

    It is called, putting God in a BOX, made only for them.

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    It is not worth trying to save the WTBCS because it is now so obviously preaching lies, both about its own history, and the Lord Jesus. (Luke 21: 8)

    After all the false prophecies, they are like Zechariah 13: 3 - 6. It is happening now.

    Any change you try to make would be less effective than treating terminal cancer with pepto bismol.

    Jesus said don't put new wine in old containers. Move on and LIVE LIVE LIVE.

    HB

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Terry,

    your underlying points and criticisms are valid but your comparison to the "right of due process" is inherently flawed. Much like the right of free speech, the rights regarding due process are applicable to the State's (that is the Government's) treatment of private individuals.

    Private individuals, which the WTBTS (and all other similar corporations) is deemed to be, may deny such rights and freedoms. That is the perogative of a private individual.

    -Eduardo

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