GOZZ,
Hi,
Why don't the elders have to pray? I thought all who were appointed were prayed over by the elders?
ATC
What is going ON?
by Aintthatcute 32 Replies latest jw friends
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Aintthatcute
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LDH
Mr Moe even Jesus had limits.
Anyhow, I don't know about 'double honor' but this buy got 'double doinked' which must count for something.
Yes, it's funny. They classify you as spirtually strong or weak based how how many magazines you sell.
Lisa
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NameWithheld
Aintthatcute: Nope, prayer isn't really involved, it go more like this -
Elder #1: I think Brother ReachingOut would be well qualified to be appointed an MS. He makes all the meetings, has good FS participation, and handles the microphones very well.
Elder #2: What about those rumors about him sleeping with that sister from OtherTown, USA?
Edler #3: Tom, my son assures me that this was a slanderous statement made by his jealous freinds.
Elder #1: Plus his wife is a great host for the CO, they really enjoyed the meal they got last visit.
Elder #2: Well, ok, let's recommend him to the CO next visit.
CO shows up
Elder #3: We've decided to recommend Bro ReachingOut for MS. Remember you had that wonderful meal with him and his wife last time?
CO: Oh yes, I recall. What have his FS reports been like the past 6 months? Is he making the nat'l average?
Edler #1: Yes, he has been averaging 14 hours a month for almost a year now.
CO: OK, let's send the recommendation to the Society.
And so on. As you can see it's mostly a 'good old boys' network, which is why it's so hard for ones who have no high placed family or freinds to ever get appointed. Those that do usually have to suffer long waits w/ TONS of hard work (massive amts of FS, meeting parts, etc) to ever get appointed MS/Elder.
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AlanF
The notion that "elders are appointed by holy spirit" is a classic example of Watchtower doublespeak designed to fool and control the ignorant. Most JWs are woefully ignorant and so the subterfuge succeeds.
What the Society actually means by this phrase is that if a man is appointed as an elder by other elders applying all of the scriptural standards for elders, then it can be said that, in effect, the man was appointed by holy spirit because the scriptural standards are a product of holy spirit.
Got that? It's total doublespeak. It leaves out the fact that no elders are ever perfectly appointed by scriptural standards. It assumes that the believer is so completely taken in by general JW teaching that he won't question what the phrase appears to mean, and then come to understand what it really means. In other words, the phrase is figurative but the Society gives the impression that it's literal.
Most JWs, including elders, don't understand the belief. They interpret the phrase "appointed by holy spirit" literally, and such elders are sometimes convinced that God actively helps them make decisions. This extends all the way back to the Governing Body, who are generally convinced that they are for all practical purposes inspired.
Elders are actually appointed by a simple process: other elders write down their recommendations or misgivings, then discuss it among themselves, then get the CO to approve the recommendation, then they send in a request to the Society to appoint the guy, then the Society looks up in its records to see if there are any black marks unknown to the local elders, and finally they rubber-stamp the appointment. If there are any problems unknown to the locals or the Society, they are of course not taken into account. Thus, a man who was convicted of child molestation 20 years ago, then became a JW but never told anyone about his conviction, and who continues his molesting activities but is never caught, can be appointed as an elder. There are plenty of active child molesters serving today as elders, ministerial servants and pioneers, despite the Society's policy (instituted in 1997) that this should not be. Clearly, God is not controlling what goes on in "his organization".
Back in the late 1970s a serious problem developed in the congregation I was attending. A young pioneer -- let's call him Rob -- who had a strong personality got married, quit pioneering and began turning his part time lawn mowing into a full time landscaping business. After several years he started hiring other young men. He wasn't up on what he was supposed to do about paying Social Security taxes and so forth, so he screwed up some things. By this time he was a Ministerial Servant. One of the young men quit and went to work for an elder -- let's call him Tom -- who had his own business for many years. The elder thus found out about Rob's tax screwup, and told him what he had to do to straighten it out. Rob did, and thought it was a done deal. But Tom had held a grudge against Rob for some time and so he used his power as a elder to bring Rob before a judicial committee for "breaking Caesar's laws". He pushed hard for disfellowshipping. The elders went round and round, first deciding to privately reprove Rob, then disfellowship, then publicly reprove, and went back and forth several times. The story got out to the congregation and it created a lot of hard feelings. I myself told Tom that if I were Rob, I'd take him to court and sue him for slander. That didn't go over too well but Tom kept his mouth shut. Finally, after about six months, the elders got the Society involved and they called in a committee from another congregation. They decided that the matter never should have been brought up in the first place because it was no one's business how a man handles his business affairs. Tom soon moved to another congregation and dropped out of the JWs. Rob is an elder today.
As a result of these Keystone Kops elders' actions, I began to realize that the claim that elders are appointed and guided by holy spirit is wrong. I talked to several elders about it, but they simply repeated the Society's standard line. So I wrote a letter to the Society and asked for a detailed explanation, telling them about the Keystone Kops. They forwarded my letter to our Circuit Overseer, who sat down with me one day and discussed the details. He gave me the explanation I told you above. At the end I asked him directly, "So the fact is that the Society teaches that elders are not directly appointed by holy spirit, right?" He literally looked at the floor and hung his head, and answered "Yes". For me that was the end of my respect for the position of elder, and was one of the things that showed me that the Society is a great, lying institution.
A few years later, in the early 1980s, a Watchtower article came out that actually explained all these things, but of course did it in such a way that most JWs still interpreted it to mean that elders are directly appointed by holy spirit. I got into a discussion with one of the Keystone Kops about this, and he absolutely insisted that the article stated that elders are indeed directly appointed. I read him the statements that said otherwise, but he simply would not see it. So if this elder -- an otherwise intelligent man -- could not or would not see the truth of the matter, how much chance does the average JW have? And that is exactly the state that the Society wants JWs to be in, because it makes it much easier to contol them.
AlanF
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Aintthatcute
You Know,
Hi, and thanks for your post,
You stated in part:
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Honoring men who serve in a position originally arranged by Jehovah is actually honoring God. It doesn't mean that some individualswho might occupy that position are necessarily worthy of honor. Look at the case of King Saul. He was hand-picked for the kingship by Jehovah's prophet Samuel, and yet Saul became a petty tyrant. David, who became a national hero and was picked to replace Saul as king, nonetheless, showed respect for the positon of one anointed by Jehovah. So, he didn't take matters into his own hands but waited on God to handle the matter, which of course he did.
You Know
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Q: How do I honor the "individuals who might occupy that position" and "are necessarily worthy of honor." and still "actually honoring God."? If I look at Saul's case: "He was hand-picked for the kingship by Jehovah's prophet Samuel" Was he hiding any defilements (gross sins, as defined by the WBTS) or was he truely a good canidate before he was "hand-picked"? I think this is similar to the experience I told.
Now, if I use David, "who became a national hero and was picked to replace Saul as king, nonetheless, showed respect for the positon of one anointed by Jehovah." And , "didn't take matters into his own hands but waited on God to handle the matter, which of course he did. " Then, it seems to me that you are telling me to flee (because that is what David did, right?) from the Sauls and their government, and "waited on God to handle the matter..."? Or, did David take matters into his own hands when he fled?
I just don't seem to undrstand.
ATC -
MrMoe 2
Go to freeminds.org, that is where I got my copy. Randy will sned it in an unmarked package. EXCELLENT book. Every JW should read it. It provided me with A LOT of insight.
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roybatty
You know, you said:
>>He was hand-picked for the kingship by Jehovah's prophet Samuel, and yet Saul became a petty tyrant.<<
I think the question is what about those that are doing what is bad (secretly) and are still appointed? It's easy to explain what happened to Saul and David but what if they were doing these awful things while they were being appointed by God?
I can state from first hand experience that there are elder and ms that are appointed while doing things that go against the WT rules.
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Makena1
AlanF - thanks for stating so clearly what first opened up my eyes to the tip of the iceberg.
You said, "Most JWs, including elders, don't understand the belief. They interpret the phrase "appointed by holy spirit" literally, and such elders are sometimes convinced that God actively helps them make decisions. This extends all the way back to the Governing Body, who are generally convinced that they are for all practical purposes inspired."
Raised a JW, I was so naive, and was totally convinced that I would see real HS in action once I got the ticket into the back "board room". What a terrible disappointment, especially when it came time to review new candidates for appointment, and being a part of JC meetings.
What I found to be even more revealing about the arrangement was what was said outside the "boardroom", especially when a group of elders were the only ones in the car group for service, letting their "hair down" etc. Made the bad rap the sisters have for gossip seem tame.
However, I still reasonsed, it must be different with the GB and appointments at headquarters. Wrong! I read Crisis of Conscience - and another big bubble burst, followed by examining origins of doctrines, discrepancies in WTBS research and articles.
Reading the candid posts from those who have had heart to heart talks with active CO's and DO's adds more evidence that the WTBS is no different than any of the other religions that they put down and try to expose. The few beliefs that are unique to the witnesses (whether one still clings to them or not) are not enough to justify IMHO the record of hypocrisy and abuse.
Peace,
Makena
Slowly pulling my head out of my a** after 40+ years. -
Esmeralda
I only have one thing to say on this subject:
My ex husband was appointed a servant for one reason and one only: His dad was the PO. End of story. He hasn't been a servant for years though, isn't even reaching out. In fact he recently shaved his head thus guaranteeing they won't even call on him to pray.
He looks at me really strangely lately. If I didn't believe that he was a pathological liar with no conscience at all, sometimes I'd swear that he has a guilty one.
Welcome to the board, aintthatcute. Glad you're not lurking anymore. Keep asking those questions. It's the only way to learn the real truth about "the Truth".
essie
p.s. you can get Crisis of Conscience online from Amazon.com or from Barnes and Noble.com. I also believe you can order it from Freeminds.org, Randy Watters site.
"Though you may disappear,
you're not forgotten here,
and I will say to you,
I will do what I can do."
~Peter Gabriel -
Aintthatcute
Thanks Esmeralda