I really think the holidays are a hard time for the witnesses. They know something is wrong and on that day, maybe they can feel it a little stronger. It doesn't feel right, especially around christmas. To me anyway. Always was a very blue day.
I got the phone call. WARNING, DEPRESSING!
by Schism 36 Replies latest jw friends
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Schism
Wow Gary, I never really thought of that. I have been wondering why I couldn't imagine anyone else's dad calling them and breaking down like that. He's quite the man's man too, so he would never seek treatment. My mom did tell me once that his doctor said he showed symptoms of compulsive behavior. Maybe he does have some underlying illness. Like I said, he'd never take pills for that. He thinks people who take pills are dumb. That's just one of his very wrong opinions that he forces onto people, saying they are factual.
And it's funny to think that during that phone conversation he called me eccentric. He loves accusing other people of having mental problems. I don't know what he thinks would make me eccentric. I might have my priorities different than he does. I love my dog more than I love the average rapist, terrorist, etc. This bothers him to no end, and he thinks that my attitude is eccentric.
I just don't get it. I know JW dads, but if any of them have a DFed kid, they just cross their fingers and move on with life. Why couldn't I just be left alone to be married and happy?
He even had to go on about how I shouldn't have married my unbelieving spouse! I trust my husband. My mom, on the other hand, has every reason in the world to believe that my dad has had affairs. What's more important? A husband that's loyal to the org, or one that's loyal to his wife? Once, he pulled my husband aside and told him that he'd cheat on my mom with 100 women before he'd even talk bad about the org. Why would he say something like that? He is crying himself to sleep at night because I didn't marry a sicko like him to help push me to the KH?
UGH, now I'm just mad at him. Thanks for reminding me that he has mental issues. It's way easier to be mad at him than to feel sorry for him
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Schism
Another thing:
When he says this, "after all we've done for you" stuff, what am I supposed to say? I mean, he says that a lot.
About what Gary said about him making others act like himself. He does that. My mom freaks out exactly like he does. Her emotions are WAY more stable, and many times, he will be freaking out while she reacts in a rational way. But every now and again, it's like I'm being bombarded with 2 crazies.
This is all making sense now...
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garybuss
It might not be appropriate for you because I don't know anything about your living situation or dependency on your Witness people, but when somebody is raving at me, I might tell them to stop because It's not making sense, and I'll tell them not to call me for three days and I'll call them back then. Then I hang up on them.
I take control of confrontations like you had fast. That was a telephone confrontation. Another way to diffuse a telephone confrontation is to say the topic is too important for the telephone and arrange to meet in three days or more in a neutral place. Never meet on your own turf . . . ever! Make the appointment and then hang up. Never try to have a rational discussion with an irrational person. -
Schism
Hah, he is so insanely forceful and brute about everything. There's no way I could get the upperhand in any conversation with him.
He wonders why I never answer the phone or go over. I told him that this was why. He said we should go over and study the Watchtower. I said no, if we go over, it has to be for something normal. He then said, well we will just have to visit at the meetings. I said no, I want to be able to talk to a family that talks about normal things for once. He just doesn't get it. He doesn't know why I never go over, yet when he invites me, it's for something weird.
For the record, we never did a home study together. Why start now that I'm married?????
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sass_my_frass
When he says this, "after all we've done for you" stuff, what am I supposed to say?
I've found that the best way to get somebody over something quickly is to make a really really big deal of it. eg: say I damaged your car and am paying for the damage myself in cash. If I also apologise sincerely and you're a reasonable person, we will be able to work it out. But say you're not a reasonable person, say you're acting like your dad. So I do a lot more big-deal apology scenes. The car's fixed, in conversations with others I point out how rotten it was of me to damage your car and how great you have been about it. I make such a big deal of that, it's embarassing for you. You either get over it or think I'm a crazy lady and get a restraining order. Okay this illustration is breaking down; back to your problem.
Firstly, defuse his indignation - acknowledge what he has done for you.
"You have made such big sacrifices"
"It must be very difficult for you to cope with"
"I wish I could make this easier for us all"
"I know how unhappy you are"Say all that several times each in a few different ways. When that's covered, you need to face one of the biggest things a parent has to do: let go of their control over your choices. This has deeply hurt every parent I know - at some point their kid has to let go of the apron strings and face life on their own. Ideally with their parent's backup, but there is a point at which a big risk has to be taken on the parents part when they take the safety net away of their constant protection and hope you'll make it out there on your own. This is a very painful time for them, as up until then, their kids have been probably the most important thing to them. You love him, he loves you, but you have to be your own man now.
Anyway, you have to assure him that you're going to be okay:
"I've been thinking so much more clearly lately"
"I don't get depressed any more"
"I'm so happy about how I can wake up and look forward to each new day now, I never could do that before"Maybe some news on why you're so much happier now:
"I really like my new friends / job / sport / course"An insight into how you're taking control of your future:
"I'm starting to think about what kind of work I'd like to aim for"
"I've been looking at my budget and getting some savings started, what do you think of this..."And maybe a reminder that the planet is a bigger place than your family, and there are better ways to contribute to it than preaching to people you've already judged:
"there's a program downtown where I can help people with downs / cancer / literacy... I think I'm going to really enjoy it"In the first scenario, if after a lot of hard work on my part to fix things up with you, you were still being an ass, I probably wouldn't try to hang out with you any more. If you put in a great effort to help your parents through this and they keep pouting, let them go. Life is too precious to waste on that crapola.
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Vinny
Your father was ME just over one year ago. All of my kids were raised in the organization. I was an elder and very zealous the entire time. However, three years ago my one son was DF'd at 16 and never wanted to come back. EVERYTHING that I did afterwards was to try to bring him around. No exaggerations. He still lived at home for a couple of years. I really believed he would die. I loved him so much (and still do), that it was imperative to get him to think about it, talk about it and get him back on track as a JW. I lost sleep over this fear as well; was consumed with what I couuld do to save him. Sound like your father?
Just one year ago, I learned about organ transplant, vaccination, alternative service prohibitions which were eventually made conscience matters. That knowledge made me look into the one issue I had always had a tough time with; Blood transfusions. This past Feb I turned in my letter of disassociation to EVERBODY"S shock... including my son. My exact letter can be read here:
http://p196.ezboard.com/Letter-of-disassociation/fexjehovahswitnessforumfrm14.showMessage?topicID=237.topic
Anyway, the fact is your father is being a very loving, caring father as was I. He obviously loves you very much. No, he is not mentally ill either. He has simply been deceived, that is all. He has bought into the JW bag of tricks, just as I did for 20 years, as well as most people on this board. It's a very powerful system they have developed over the years. Claim they are the one true faith on earth. ALL others to be destroyed. Hear the very same message every single week during five meetings, family study, field service, daily text etc.etc. Discipline or remove those that oppose or even question current JW teachings. Claim that their OWN salavation is in jeaopardy if not fully supporting all JW teachings. Call all those "critical" of the org APOSTATE. Warn JW's to stay off the internet (where they can learn the real truth). Shun those that voluntarily leave due to knowing the REAL TRUTH about the JW history. Threaten to shun those that DO speak with those already out that just happen to know these things. Again, it's a very effective system to keep all JW's in line, in the dark and doing exactly what they are told.
The only advice I can offer you is to simply get INTO these issues with your father, point by point. Otherwise unless you stop speaking with him it will never end... ever. He should be willing to do this even though it's dangerous for him to do so. Tell him ahead of time, if he can deal with these issues specifically and directly in a satisfactory manner, that you would consider coming back to the faith. If it's the TRUTH, then he should have nothing to fear in terms of issues on your mind. Before officially turning in that letter posted above, I asked 30 different peoplen to try to answer these specific issues that were in that letter. I spoke to so many people along the way that I though my head would explode. Seriously, I was drained from so much heavy discussion with so many people that I actually was happy to finally end it all with by turning it in. The bottom line though, was that not one single Elder, Pioneer, Ministerial Servant, friend, family or anybody else could deal with ANY of those issues. Seriously, not one could. Let your father then HEAR them and see what he can say. Be subtle, do not tell him what you believe, just tell him you are confused and need answers to these questions. Do not expect any quick fix either. But in time, if he is willing to consider the issues you put on the table, he may begin to see the light.
He does love you. He just wants to save you. No doubt about it. The real issue is, can you save him? -
Quandry
I am with the poster who said this could have been him one year ago. This would have been my stance before, also. I have a child. If you have never had a child you cannot know the incredible love and responsibility you feel toward it.
Please be patient with dad. He is totally indoctrinated and sounds sincere.
I go with the advice to ask a question. In a nice way. Not confrontational like the Jehovah is mean to kill babies thing. How about the change in generation thing? This means you will have to do some advance research. Tell dad that you are willing to examine your religion just like he wants you to, and now you want to know something. Why did the WTS write for years that the generation that was alive and at an age of understanding would not die before the big A, then change it to people that were at least born and babies at 1914 would not pass away, then oops, we didn't understand the generation thing. They quietly changed the message on the inside cover of Awake magazines to reflect their changes without letting anyone know. Who are the Nethinim and how will they take over if no annointed are left on the earth? How will they get their spiritual light if they are not annointed?
It does no good to argue with dad. Hopefully you can at least agree to disagree without a fight going on every time he sees you. Don't forget humor can often diffuse an angry confrontation also.
Poor dad. He does love you and feels desperate. Give him time.
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Schism
Sure, he is sincere, and I do feel bad for him. But he also is compulsive. He is pushy too. Not to mention, VERY inappropriate sometimes when he has a point to prove and he doesn't care whose feelings he hurts to prove it.
I won't be able to try to talk about any of those points with him because even if he's backed into a corner, he will pull the demon excuse or something. His sister is an apostate and she has tried bringing up some of this stuff. He thinks she's possesed.
He isn't zealous either. Don't think that for a minute. He is just worried about everyone dying all of a sudden. Something lit a fire under his butt recently. He has never studied with me or anything, but now he wants to start. I am married now. The strings are cut. I have a spouse!
He also told me that I will never understand the love a parent has for a child. He has been going into detail about that since I was small. I find it weird and uncomfortable for him to say stuff like that. I don't want him to compare his love for me to my love for my dog, spouse, for him and mom, etc. It's just weird for me. I'm not a daddy's girl, and I never have been. Our personalities butt heads (which worries me, because that would suggest that we are alike, and I don't want to be insane).
I understand that he has been fooled, and I would love to help him out, but he doesn't want help.
I want him to know that I'm happy. I told him I am, and he proceeded to ARGUE that I am not I do have something I like doing. I like helping animals. And to him, the more I want to help a dog, it means that I am depressed and I'm looking for something to make me happy. He thinks supporting a good cause is for depressed people only, and that you can only find true happiness being a JW. He claims he knows this because he has had everything and has never been happy because he's never been a good JW.
So basically, he tends to be the pot calling the kettle black. I don't know if I have the patience to deal with this. He is OVERBEARING. I had to put it in caps because I just can't put enough emphasis on it. It's hard to deal with someone who smothers you with a mixture of love, weirdness, rudeness, and ignorance.
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truthsetsonefree
You know it is stories like this that make me hate the Governing Body. The things that people feel compeled to do to their own children because of the GBs teachings. Schism, for what its worth, there is probably nothing you can do. But on that demons issue there are other religions who believe pretty much the same things JWs do. See http://www.thefamily.org/about/beliefs.php#13 for one example. Take care.
tsof