The thoughts of real True Believers

by Norm 24 Replies latest jw friends

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  Norm

  Hello Rex,

  You said:

  C'm on Norm, How many times must your question be answered? It's really the same question over and over, "why does God, did not God...etc." What happened in Genesis, Norm?

  Well Rex, you have NEVER answered these questions. Yes you have replied to the questions but have left them unanswered. If someone ask you what time it is and you reply that the weather is nice, even you should be able to understand that it wasn’t an answer. This is the usual technique of the Watchtower Society and of course other Christians when they (as usual) are unable to answer embarrassing questions.

  You want freedom to choose or not choose God instead of being a puppet, right? That drama has been played out for 6000 years and you have exactly what you wanted. "I am the 'captain of my fate' and I choose my lifestyle. I am responsible to no one and no one else is."

  You seem to love this “record” because you have played it so many times Rex. What has this got to do with my questions, Rex? You have no idea about any lifestyle of mine whatsoever, this isn’t the time to talk about your fantasies abut my lifestyle, stop talking nonsense, quit dodging and give us an answer.

  Yep, you have the very thing that humanity has asked for. Live with it and quit whining or, maybe you could actually do something to make the world a better place in a little way?

  Who is whining Rex, asking you a few simple questions isn’t whining, whining I leave to the experts Rex, people like you. How do you know I am NOT working to make the world a better place? You know noting about me and my personal life, what are you talking about? Don’t you understand that you can’t sidetrack this issue this easy?

  God acts when He chooses and in His way and at His time. He provided us with a saviour and a life free to choose Him or not. The victory was won clear back at the cross and it is your own fault if you do not take His offer.
  Where's your charity, Norm? You didn't answer my inquiry.

  Rex

  This is sheer sidestepping and dodging Rex, it isn’t even well done, you act like a clod. Now, quit this stalling and blustering, Rex. Charity? Another red herring to dodge the answer, Rex? Well it is another excellent example of your God’s impotence, again it proves my point. God is of course totally unable to help anyone. Of course only people can help people. Do I give to charities? Yes Indeed I do. I care about my fellow man; I know God isn’t doing anything so I have to do it myself. I know God would never give me any food so I have to get it myself, it is very simple Rex.

  Let me repeat my questions again Rex and see if you can manage a simple answer this time:
  
  Could your God have prevented the WTC and Pentagon horror? If he could why didn't he? If he couldn't what does that make him? In any case what's the use of praying to him?

  Now try to explain this to us "unbelievers" Rex, try not to drown us in even more flem this time.

  Norm.

  P.S. Of course I know that you are not willing or even able to answer such simple questions Rex, I am of course having those ever present lurkers in mind, giving you yet another chance to demonstrate you total inability and impotence when it comes to dealing with anything even resembling reality. All you have been able to do so far has been to post verbose smoke screens in your usual desperate style hoping to cloud the issue. It doesn’t work Rex, forget it.
• 

  Rex B13

  Norm,
  I guess you just refuse to recognize the obvious answers within my post. Let's make it real simple.

  1) God is in complete control of the universe.

  2) He has obviously allowed His creation to have free will and determine their own fates within His limits. Choosing good or evil is our choice and we are responsible for that.

  a) God does not try nor tempt with evil.
  b) God limits evil and acts to rectify or dampen it's effects.
  c) Satan has to have God's permission to test us. Read Job, Norm.

  3) God most decidely could have stopped the attack. Some have suggested it is a form of judgement, drawing parallels between Israel being judged (by God) using pagan nations. I don't agree, for America has never been under a covenant with God.
  I also do not judge God. You (think) you do that well, so I'll let you.
  However, there is also this possibility: we have seen all down through history how nations have been held accountable for their actions and they are in place only because God allows them to be. All who 'ask for' judgement, by their actions as a nation will face the consequences and this may be only the beginning for the western democracies. I pray that our countries receive mercy and grace.

  I suggest you study the Biblical doctrines of election (Paul explains predestination in Romans), both the Arminian and the Calvinist sides if you want to understand the debate within Christianity on this issue.
  Rex
• 

  Norm

  Rex,

  Well done Rex, it is the first time I have seen you actually attempt to answer.

  You said:

  Norm,
  I guess you just refuse to recognize the obvious answers within my post. Let's make it real simple.

  1) God is in complete control of the universe.
  2) He has obviously allowed His creation to have free will and determine their own fates within His limits. Choosing good or evil is our choice and we are responsible for that.

  I see, so I was right all along, he didn’t care so he didn’t do anything. Is this how you treat your children Rex? Let them do whatever they want while watching? Why pray to this God? What’s the use?

  a) God does not try nor tempt with evil.
  b) God limits evil and acts to rectify or dampen it's effects.
  c) Satan has to have God's permission to test us. Read Job, Norm.

  So Satan has to have God’s permission to do his supposedly evil deed’s? Who is ultimately responsible for Satan’s actions then, Rex? Dear oh dear. What a lovable fellow your God is Rex.

  3) God most decidely could have stopped the attack. Some have suggested it is a form of judgement, drawing parallels between Israel being judged (by God) using pagan nations. I don't agree, for America has never been under a covenant with God.
  I also do not judge God. You (think) you do that well, so I'll let you.

  Well, again he didn’t care enough to stop it or any other senseless bloodbath around the world. Why do people bother to pray to such a God after such disasters? He didn’t care enough to prevent their loved ones being killed, so why does anyone think he will help anyone afterwards? I can’t judge your God, Rex, he is just a figment of your imagination. I just want to know how you hold that insane reality you live in together.

  However, there is also this possibility: we have seen all down through history how nations have been held accountable for their actions and they are in place only because God allows them to be. All who 'ask for' judgement, by their actions as a nation will face the consequences and this may be only the beginning for the western democracies. I pray that our countries receive mercy and grace.

  Aha, care to mention one example of a Nation who has been held accountable for its actions by God but don’t try any of those fairy tales from the Bible, but tell us an example of a modern Nation. If God show the same disregard for the lives of people as he has demonstrated throughout history, how has God allowed anyone anything? Why do you bother praying for anything Rex?
  
  

  I suggest you study the Biblical doctrines of election (Paul explains predestination in Romans), both the Arminian and the Calvinist sides if you want to understand the debate within Christianity on this issue.

  Rex

  Well, I really have studied the Bible very thoroughly Rex, It doesn’t make any sense at all. Reading your “explanations” this fact becomes even more obvious.

  Norm
• 

  Tina

  bttt

  Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
• 

  Rex B13

  Hi Norm,
  I do appreciate you recognizing my honest attempt to answer your questions. I too easily fall into 'flame wars' and don't see the sincerity when it is evident.
  I cannot answer every question as we do have mysteries, involving faith and the JW idea that one can rationally figure out those mysteries is nonsense.

  >Well done Rex, it is the first time I have seen you actually attempt to answer.

  You said:

  quote:
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  Norm,
  I guess you just refuse to recognize the obvious answers within my post. Let's make it real simple.
  1) God is in complete control of the universe.
  2) He has obviously allowed His creation to have free will and determine their own fates within His limits. Choosing good or evil is our choice and we are responsible for that.

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Norm: I see, so I was right all along, he didn’t care so he didn’t do anything. Is this how you treat your children Rex? Let them do whatever they want while watching? Why pray to this God? What’s the use?

  Rex: I did not address this. John 3.16,17 and Romans 6.23; 10.9-11 do so very well. Man has been insistent on his desire to control his own destiny. He is responsible for his actions, including the effects on others. We are immortal souls, Norm. We are made in God's image but have fallen and are separated from God because of His holiness.
  He came to earth, humbled Himself as a 'servant' (Phil. 2.6-11; throw away your NWT.)

  quote:
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  a) God does not try nor tempt with evil.
  b) God limits evil and acts to rectify or dampen it's effects.
  c) Satan has to have God's permission to test us. Read Job, Norm.
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  >So Satan has to have God’s permission to do his supposedly evil deed’s? Who is ultimately responsible for Satan’s actions then, Rex? Dear oh dear. What a lovable fellow your God is Rex.

  Rex: No, you now fall on the point of 'free will' and mistake 'allowance' for 'intent'. Look up 'Calvinism', 'Arminianism' for the two main teachings on this issue.

  quote:
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  3) God most decidely could have stopped the attack. Some have suggested it is a form of judgement, drawing parallels between Israel being judged (by God) using pagan nations. I don't agree, for America has never been under a covenant with God.
  I also do not judge God. You (think) you do that well, so I'll let you.
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  >Well, again he didn’t care enough to stop it or any other senseless bloodbath around the world. Why do people bother to pray to such a God after such disasters?

  Actually, a fourth jet was prevented from it's deadly course. We also have no idea how many acts were prevented that day and have been prevented already. Really, Norm, unless you can see into the limitless possible realities, how can you even hope to address the events in hindsight?
  It boggles the mind to think about all the even worse things that mankkind could do to himself, eh?
  Isn't it remarkable how George W. has rallied the world against terrorism and so many countries that were ignoring the ugly events are now taking steps to limit this evil from spreading?
  Indeed, if the U.S. did not restrain itself from the nuclear option, would that then give the terrorists incentive to purchase and deliver a nuke to a major city? What has prevented them from this and what has prevented the world from WWIII (estroying ourselves!) in the last fifty years? I believe it is the hand of God that has done so.

  >He didn’t care enough to prevent their loved ones being killed, so why does anyone think he will help anyone afterwards? I can’t judge your God, Rex, he is just a figment of your imagination. I just want to know how you hold that insane reality you live in together.

  Eternity in mind. Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is also a powerful teacher and provides insight. Loving the God who took my sin and the sins of the world on His shoulders by climbing on a cross to provide a propititary sacrifice for my sins. You can see 'types' of Christ throughout the O.T. The first one was the skin covering, the animal sacrifice (to replace the judgement) was the first act of 'grace' by God.

  quote:
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  However, there is also this possibility: we have seen all down through history how nations have been held accountable for their actions and they are in place only because God allows them to be. All who 'ask for' judgement, by their actions as a nation will face the consequences and this may be only the beginning for the western democracies. I pray that our countries receive mercy and grace.
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  >Aha, care to mention one example of a Nation who has been held accountable for its actions by God

  Israel, Judah, Babylon, Assyria, Greece, Rome, Germany, Japan, Russia and the good ole', USA. Every nation has experienced it at least one time, some even unto their death as a nation.

  >but don’t try any of those fairy tales from the Bible, but tell us an example of a modern Nation. If God show the same disregard for the lives of people as he has demonstrated throughout history, how has God allowed anyone anything? Why do you bother praying for anything Rex?

  He created us Norm. He sets the length of our days anyways. It is a moot point. You don't see it because you ignore eternity. You will never see it unless you seek God and you aren't going to find Him here.

  quote:
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  I suggest you study the Biblical doctrines of election (Paul explains predestination in Romans), both the Arminian and the Calvinist sides if you want to understand the debate within Christianity on this issue.
  Rex

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  >Well, I really have studied the Bible very thoroughly Rex, It doesn’t make any sense at all. Reading your “explanations” this fact becomes even more obvious.

  Norm

  Instead of debating me, why not spend some time looking deeply into the theology. Take a look at some of the books that I have often recommended. Start with C.S. Lewis, maybe read about Mortimer Adler, who found God after being a lifelong atheist.
  May God provide a light for your path.
  Rex