Anathema of Science and Religion

by LittleToe 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • zensim
    zensim

    Great discussion Little Toe - thanks.

    I was just reading the following last night and it goes to some attempt to explain where I am currently at (and I say currently, because basically I take the stance that I know what I know in this moment and I am completely prepared that what I know will not serve me in the next moment):

    "As healing is opposed to suffering, so it is central to our pursuit of happiness. All religion, philosophy and science are human inventions and a product of this perennial search".

    By way of my thinking and feeling, I take the view that everything is born of an unfathomable source (call it god, Jehovah, the universe - I don't care) and so there is no right or wrong. How can you say science is wrong if we were created/evolved with brains to think and explore? And how can you say emotions are wrong (and religion is largely emotionally based) if we all have emotions? Some people tend to get confused especially with the emotions trust, hope and blind faith (denial).

    Most people are very very uncomfortable with not knowing. So all their "I'm right, you're wrong" is really just the fear of the unkown. That void can be very scary. I think the more we become comfortable with uncomfortable feelings, the easier it becomes. For some, coming out of the JW's - or any other strong belief system (family, culture, society etc) - either gets them used to the feeling of disintegration and letting go or sends them deeper into wanting to feel safe by "knowing", so often they just replace one strong belief system with an opposing belief system.

    I do agree though that the JW's seem to have a special talent for doing it with both science and religion. Then again, I think we are all guilty of picking and choosing what suits us. However, I have come to the conclusion this is not a bad thing, being true to yourself is finding what serves you best. What is unhealthy is thinking that what serves you is the only answer for everyone else and/or holding onto something with pig-headed attachment once something no longer healthily serves you. What is truth today may not be a truth tomorrow. Holding it out as truth because your ego and pride is too hard to swallow makes it a lie - I don't care how much of a truth it originally was.

    It is not easy to be balanced and find harmony - each and every one of us are complex individuals. And there are billions of us all trying to find ourselves and each other!

    I am much more interested in understanding how the physical, mental and emotional all work in harmony. Most people tend to focus just on one or two aspects at any given time - some throughout their whole life.

    I can have strong opinions and can also call someone an idiot or moronic (but generally it is just done in jest - which others may not appreciate). I tend to look at the individual and see whether or not they are living from a healthy place, mentally, emotionally and physically. And I take the person before me, in that moment. If someone before me is in an unhealthy place that doesn't bother me - I still go there myself (though not nearly as often). What bothers me is if they have taken up residence in that unhealthy place and are now inflicting that unhealthy behaviour on others. There is a vast difference. Basically I don't care what someone believes, it is not hard to find balanced scientists who are more happy and productive than a lot of religionists. And it is not hard to find a lot of spiritual people who are more happy and healthy than a lot of tech heads.

    I am just enjoying the journey and the freedom to learn what I want, from whom I want and the freedom to pick and choose what I want to believe. I don't really dismiss much, I tend to look at something and if I don't believe it - I just put it on the shelf. I may re-visit it another time and decide now it does serve me - or I may never look at it again.

  • trevor
    trevor

    People who have been long time Jehovah’s Witnesses, then left do often continue their distrust of science and religion and spend too much energy maintaining a hatred of the Watchtower Society. All very understandable but not conducive to development and awareness.

    I too was guilty of this for many years but am now able to see the need that religion fulfils in peoples live and how it has offered a social and cultural structure to society. But prayer has not delivered the answers and in the longer term I think it is science that must provide solutions to the problems that humanity faces.

    The human race is far more aware of its origins and its blindness. Religion came into being as an explanation to phenomena that people could not understand. Now that science has explained many of life’s mysteries and helped us to become more enlightened, we realise that we are collectively responsible for the world we live in.

  • zensim
    zensim
    I still maintain that in an environment such as this the indifferent will rarely post.

    Little Toe: that is not entirely true. I didn't weigh in on the global warming debate because I acknowledge that I know very little about it. I feel very passionately that something must be done - but I wouldn't have the faintest where to start (I did tend to agree with Zagor's comments tho). So whilst that may be true for some, I think a lot of what you term "indifference" may be just the wise realising that they don't have something constructive to really add in addition to what has already been said much better by others.

    I got serious- and had fun - with the homeopathy debate because I have explored both the science and hope/faith aspect of that field. It is a field I am closely aligned with (natural health) and I appreciate both sides. For me it is not one side has all the answers but rather how they can work together and enhance each other.

    The human race is far more aware of its origins and its blindness. Religion came into being as an explanation to phenomena that people could not understand. Now that science has explained many of life’s mysteries and helped us to become more enlightened, we realise that we are collectively responsible for the world we live in.

    Trevor I couldn't agree with this more. I think human consciousness is much more aware now that there is a place for everything and that spirituality - not religion - has a place for those yet to be understood mysteries in life. And I assume that as long as human's don't have the answer for everything, spirituality will have its natural place. And really, no one likes the thought of a place devoid of the mystery that spices up life. I for one used to sometimes get scared of the whole paradise new system concept because I was scared it would be boring! I think I still do - balance is a fine line to tread, between complacency and contentment. I just want to keep growing, I think the only thing I have control over is whether I do that in a healthy or unhealthy way, whether I enjoy the process or resent it.

  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    LT

    Rabbit:You've demonstrated my point. It's like there's a "reaction" to certain topics that are sometimes difficult to overcome. Even when it's possible to muster up something good to say, it's softened by emphasising either the bad or how rare it is.

    I meant to. And I readily admit I have a "reaction" to religious thoughts nowadays. I believe what I said is fair. There is good & bad in religion...any other statement would be false, imho. Don't you agree? Don't you "react", too?

    I am a 'work in progress'. As a JW I couldn't see any good in any belief system that wasn't WTB&TS. Now...with a lot of help from people on ex-jw boards and especially what I've seen with my own eyes...I've moderated my viewpoint. I've seen incredible love and helpfullness from churches that my wife and DIL attend toward them and others. I understand why 'the plate' gets passed (now) -- true charity, education, financial & emotional support, child care, etc.

    I don't go around telling people they should not have a belief in a god or religion.I do say, "I don't need it." I also say, "Never say never...I have no idea where my beliefs will end up in a few years, but, this time it will be natural."

    Addendum: If some people do good merely because they are good, what is the big issue with them living their lives according to a particular framework of belief? I guess my pidge with this is that the terms in which such people are described include such adjectives as deluded, etc.
    Whence comes this intense need to derogatorily describe folks whose opinions and frame of reference differ from our own?

    "Hey, you talkin' to me?"

    I could be wrong, but, I don't think I am 'one of those' intensely derogatory people.

    I personally have no "big issue" as long as their beliefs "harm none". If they harm folks I don't know, I'll get miffed, if they harm those I care about that's another story.

    Delude, deluded
    1. To deceive the mind or judgment.

    I do believe people in cults can be very deluded and dangerous.
    I know I was...I refused a blood transfusion for one of my newborn children!! We were Kingdom Hall heroes, we "...had faith like Abraham." We had the "faith" to kill our child over an idea! Luckily, our baby lived.

    I'll admit it..."faith" in the supernatural has very bad memories. For me it's -- scary.

    I'm agnostic (i.e. fence rider, wishy-washy, can't make up my mind, hedging my bet, etc.) so maybe I'm deluded (still), but, as long as my belief/faith doesn't hurt anyone... I hope people will leave me to my "particular framework" of delusions.

    Rabbit (agnostic = I-don't-know class)

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Zenism:
    I think we're merely miscommunicating a little. I guess my point is simply that if someone is indifferent to a subject they are unlikely to debate it in the first place (even if they get so far as clicking on the thread). Emotionally-charged ignorance (and I mean that in a non-perjorative sense) of the full implications of a comment or topic is a different matter. Willful ignorance can be yet another.

    I can understand Hillary's frustrations with someone who states that they believe what they believe and they are totally right, everyone else is wrong, and they are unwilling to look at any evidence or ideas to the contrary. Those kind of debates tend to lead to a slippery slope of emotional upset and hurt pride. On rare occasions they yield someone licking their wounds and actually investigating the subject further, but I can honestly say that I've not seen too many of them.

    Rabbit:
    The addendum wasn't about you, it was in reply to some of your comments

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    James:

    I personally know an EPA scientist with a masters degree in chemistry who had absolutely no knowledge of the Standard Model of subnuclear particles, had never heard of quarks, and was only vaguely aware of the so-called "string theory" because of a piece on educational TV.

    A similar phenomina can be seen in theological circles, with a dearth of knowledge or even interest in other religions or beliefs. Such are the dangers of specialism, perhaps, but it's always going to happen. Einstein was a genius but I wouldn't take fashion tips from him

    Trevor:
    On the back of your comments I'd like to point out that I'm not attempting to condemn anyone for their current point on the road. I guess I'm just trying to articulate and discuss a phenomena that interests me.

    I attempt to live by the adage "know thyself", and find it useful to discuss these kind of things. It helps me explore my own feelings on a subject, as well as that of others

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT

    It might seem unusual to lump both of these subjects together, but there seem to be clear parallels in attitudes, to me. Or am I just sidetracked because both subjects are passions of mine?

    What do you think are some of the theological implications of "M Theory"? You know billions and billions of parallel universes.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    DDog: "...sounds like heaven..."

    The question is a little off-topic, though, isn't it?

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog
    The question is a little off-topic, though, isn't it?

    Maybe, but, it makes the point that Science and Religion are two very complex topics. It's work to think about them at the same time. Many can't or won't take the time to work through them.

    "... sounds like heaven ..."

    All those LTs and D Dogs... Heaven? Hmm

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    LT - dammit! -- RE:

    "" Einstein was a genius but I wouldn't take fashion tips from him ""

    That was funny, but a little too close to the mark. I had this ex-JW girlfriend (we can just call her Jobell777) who upbraided me continuously for having ball point pens in my pocket (even at the company christmas party!). I found an old Scientific American which showed a B&W photo of Einstein & Kurt Goerdel walking in the campus park in their later days, and both of them had a ball point pen in their shirt pockets.

    _________

    OK - back on topic, and may I give a word of admiration for Little Toe's insight to do this thread!

    Specifically: LT makes the point that hatred and anathema of ancient religion is exactly just as silly as hatred of science. For example, we now know that Newton was not exactly right about gravity (thanks to Albert E.), but the amazing miracle of it all was how close to right he really was.

    Is it possible to draw that analogy with the religions of this world? Of course they must eventually evolve, but is not this the source fountain of most of human hope, desire, and ethics? Would science itself (along with the ability to have a written language, history, and government) exist at all without the various religions (including all of their faults)?

    I stand with our friend LT on this - us ex-JW should really look deep in our souls and see if we can possibly have a little more sympathy for what religious thought has gone before us. It is in fact a human reality, just as sure as the laws of physics.

    James (uni-ball pens firmly clipped into pocket).

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