Anathema of Science and Religion

by LittleToe 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Thanks James.

    While I wouldn't claim religion as the inventor of many of the things we take for granted, it is part of the tapestry of history that has helped and hindered developing thought. Where we are is in part due to religion. Some would argue that we might be further on, others might argue that we would have regressed.

    My opinion, fwiw, is that religion has permitted a framework and order to society that has allowed science to thrive, while also putting the brakes on enough to allow us to evolve at a steady pace. As a sidebar, the predestinationist in me thinks that we are exactly where we are meant to be

    DDog:
    Maybe we each get our own parallel universe where everything is perfect for us

  • james_woods
    james_woods

    Indeed the truth about it, LT.

    My predestinational Calvinist Presbyterian mirror universe tells me that I should be an old curmudgeon on such a board as JWD and also that I truly deserve a Red Ferrari Testarossa.

    As the captain of the Enterprise said -

    Make it so.

  • Apostate Kate
    Apostate Kate

    It may be that the polarization exists because some ex JWs still believe in a Creator, and some Ex JWs believe there is no Creator.

    I don't think it is all about science. Most people have a basic understanding and use of science in everyday life. Some know more than others. Science has yet to prove or disprove a Creator so that should not even be a topic of aurgement and division.

    Either way we can all admit that we are not all knowing in all things and be open to discussions without name calling and judging.

  • daystar
    daystar

    I think the problem is the comparison of a relatively highly disciplined art such as science, with a relatively sloppy art such as "religion".

    Now, compare secular scientists to people like John Dee, C.F. Russell and their ilk and studies and we may be more on track.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    LT,

    I would like to comment on your comment to Zen:

    Those kind of debates tend to lead to a slippery slope of emotional upset and hurt pride. On rare occasions they yield someone licking their wounds and actually investigating the subject further, but I can honestly say that I've not seen too many of them.

    I think what makes it hard for some to do a more honest evaluation of thier dogmatic beleifs is when they post such beleifs and argue that they are true. This by human nature tends to make one very biased, for who likes to be loser in a debate? And in addition to this that a person who has been indoctrinated with religious beleifs that spans decades, he may not realize that what he has come to believe as the "truth" is fraught with misinformation spoon fed to him by those who likewise have been indoctrinated with ideas and aurguments that have evovled over centuries of time to keep these religions alive, and beleivable. It is like a virus in many ways, that keeps on evolving so that it will survive, and reproduce. It is not really interested in "truth" just surviving, and reproducing to stay in existence. Are not many religious Ideas like a thought virus?

    I think science is a great tool but it can be used for bad and good. Science in order to benifit man greatly needs to be used in a compassionate way. Too bad that a lot of the funding for science is from governments that do it more for the advantages this gives them to dominate and keep a strong military or to exploit the the earths resourses. But It may also save our asses or our offspring's asses in the furture, by showing us how we can reverse the damage done to our earthly home, or at least how we can live and not cause such a terrible impact on our ecco-system. Time will tell on this one. No guarentees, we could all go extinct, nothing is cetain, or we could rise above our evolutionary developed ability to be so exploitive, and dominating, and our other evolutionary triats of altruism, and compassion may come to over power these, which would mean a change of consciencousness and our world view as a species. I like to think more on the bright side, that we will over come, the problems we now face, and science will helps us in that processs.

    As far as religion and science goes, I don't see them ever mixing in some type of harmonious marriage. Maybe sicence and spirituality, but never S&R. Religion by its very nature, is based on rules (some have many other a few) and that its followers follow the rules of that religion, questioning the rules is not encouraged, can you imagine how long a religion would last if it were otherwise? What if a preacher preached against the religion's rules that he belonged to how long would he last in that religion? Some do of course and managed not to get kicked out, I guess it all depends on how many or which rules you preach against JW have a very low tollerence where Catholism a some what higher(in this modern time not durring the dark ages LOL) Religion is all about conformity even if it says it is not. Science on the other hand is best served by innovative, creative, and out of the box thinkers, and many scientist often are happy when someone brings forth information that may shatter a long held belief in favor of a more accurate one, human nature being what it is, we can not reasonable expect every scientist would be willing to accept a better understanding, but for the most part I beleive that thier curiousity over rides these tendencies, of the "community as a whole."

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I believe my point may be being missed, else the thread is going down another route. I'm not stating that religion and science will be or cannot be synthesised. I'm merely stating that these are two main topics that exJWs can often be found unwilling to examine properly.

    Regardless of whether one is a materialist, humanist or theist, generalisations are often bandied about rather than serious research with individuals eschewing theology, religion in general and scientific knowledge, regardless of how they describe themselves.

    I wasn't attempting to set this up as an "us verses them" argument, but rather a discussion as to why so many avoid studying such topics while claiming an overarching "knowledge" that they are simple "bad".

    Is it merely intellectual laziness, as Didier and hillary suggest?

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    LT,

    I wasn't attempting to set this up as an "us verses them" argument, but rather a discussion as to why so many avoid studying such topics while claiming an overarching "knowledge" that they are simple "bad".

    I didn't take it that way, and I hope by my post I not was even implicating that you were. I was just giving my .02 as to what I thought both R&S were as respects to each other, I kinda feel it has some bearing on the thread and did not intend to take it into left field somewhere.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Sorry bud, I should have added my thanks to you for comments. You make some good points, as usual.

    Which branch of science are you talking about, though? Archaeology, for example, is very traditionalist and doesn't tolerate new ideas very well. It only begrudgingly cedes to them when the evidence becomes overwhelming, and/or they have a notable sponsor.

    Some religions are more or less tolerant, as you express. But I would like to again throw into the pot the role that religion has had in keeping society together. I'd stand corrected, but as far as I'm aware science doesn't really attempt to support this area of human living, aside from examining it in the social sciences.

    I should also like to add that we are not unique in this kind of attitude, as exJWs. There are plenty of ne'er-been-a-JWs who are just as simplistic in their outlook.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT

    DDog:
    Maybe we each get our own parallel universe where everything is perfect for us

    You mean everything isn't perfect here? Nah, "own parallel universe" sounds like JW resurrection

    We may enter another dimension though. Now that could be fun!

    As a sidebar, the predestinationist in me thinks that we are exactly where we are meant to be

    I guess the Calvinist in me has to agree. But if I were God, I would slow things down a little. The older I get, it's getting harder and harder to keep up.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    LT,

    I'm glad any misunderstanding in my post is out of the way. It is nice when misunderstandings can be dispatched quickly. If only the rest of our species with their big governement, could do so!

    Which branch of science are you talking about, though? Archaeology, for example, is very traditionalist and doesn't tolerate new ideas very well. It only begrudgingly cedes to them when the evidence becomes overwhelming, and/or they have a notable sponsor.

    Basically all branches in my comments. But where I talk about our survival as a species, it would have to be a bit more narrowed down to technology, social, enviromental, nuclear, and perhaps(I'm sure many will disagree and say it is not science)psychology(because it is thoughts and consciousness and how our psyhie operate and can't really be measured like material things).

    Some religions are more or less tolerant, as you express. But I would like to again throw into the pot the role that religion has had in keeping society together. I'd stand corrected, but as far as I'm aware science doesn't really attempt to support this area of human living, aside from examining it in the social sciences.

    I guess that this view depends on if you view "keeping society" together is really a good thing? I'm more along the line of an anarchist, I really think that our changing from nomadic hunter/gatheres living where ever we found food(untill about 10,000 yrs ago), and then when we learned how to plant seeds and grow our own food, and thus settle down into villiages, set the scene for the eventually terrible military exploits of unspeakable cruelty, as the more power hungry of our species started empire building,, back in what we call the cradle of civilization Mesapitamia(?). IN all honesty I look at this as a mixed bag of good and bad, but the bad tipping the scales and out wieghing the good(personal opinion to be sure). I see the so called " socialization" of the world population of humans by the force of human government, to be something that the goverrnment has indoctrinated into us to viewing as good, You know the patriotic BS, like, God&Country, be a good citizen pay your taxes, and things like "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" similar rhetoric.

    And so I can agree,, that with the help of religion these government have been able to subjegate the human species with both good and bad results. And in all fairness I must admit too that governments are using science(militarily, and other ways) too for the same ends but hopefully, this is just a temperarry blip in the evolution of man, and not the cause for his extinction.

    I should also like to add that we are not unique in this kind of attitude, as exJWs. There are plenty of ne'er-been-a-JWs who are just as simplistic in their outlook.

    I think among scientist population, there is a better chance to override the brainwashing, we get from what ever type of governmental indoctrination we are subject to, I think the free thinkers of this world are growing in number (still too few but growing). I have to admitt that the internet is help, for I have been able to get lots of fresh ideas to ponder, debate, and discuss. I've even been able to put thread topics on this site, and watched them get shot down or supported,,usually both and learned something. I think a sign of old age is when your mind won't adapt to new ideas and it gets its thinking in the rut of :

    "Nobody can teach me anything, if they diagree with me, they are wrong I'm right end of discussion", and/or, "been there done that, I've seen it all". This is the view that really makes one old in there thinking (and harden of the arteries don't help either) and stops one from having the childlike creative mind filled with wonder, soaking in thier surrounding to a person that hardly notices anything because he seen it all already.

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