Noah's Ark ....How did Noah......................

by KAYTEE 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Would that pitch have kept the Ark in one piece when all the methane from the animal shit exploded?

    HB

    I busted out LOL when I read this one. Good thing I was alone and between sips of coffee.

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    AllAlongTheWatchtower, excellent points. I will tackle them the same way an average JW would.
    They would go by their current understanding of WT teachings, usually without even looking up the
    stuff in bound volumes. Here we go-

    Planetary expansion: If the whole earth was covered in water, that means the entire surface expanded
    enough to cover Mt Everest-over 5 miles high. Meaning an increase in the mass of the planet. Impossible.

    The mountain wasn't there yet. The pressure from the water caused all the mountains to form after the flood.
    The depth of the water could have just been a few feet in most places.

    PH levels: You can't mix freshwater fish and saltwater fish. Yet,... And the salt levels of this giant ocean
    would be drastically reduced by all the billions of tons of rain. Absolute global fishkill.

    With the shallow depth, the water between some hills may have been fairly isolated and not mixing much
    with outside water- resulting in fresh pockets and salt pockets. Jehovah protected those areas for the delicate
    marine life, the same as he protected the seeds of plants that could not take the total submersion. Animals
    that were used to the different salt levels, Jehovah changed them to adapt. Anyway, those fish are still there,
    so he had some way of doing it.

    Room: ...between 1.4 million and 1.75 million species... 20, 835 animals crammed on the ark, plus
    Noah and family.

    He used baby animals. Jehovah probably caused the animals to go thru a change that allowed them to stand
    still and crowd together. If all the animals backed into their stalls, so they could be fed by someone running around
    to all their mouths, perhaps they didn't have any dung at all because they barely got enough food, so they just stood there,
    never moving, shoulder to shoulder. The WTS says it can be done. I don't need the math to prove they are wrong. Maybe
    they just needed 2 dogs with all the genes of dogs, wolves, foxes within them. Same with horses, cats, bears.
    The Bible doesn't teach evolution, but (against all observable science) each species can diversify extremely rapidly.

    If you ever saw Doctor Who, there is another explanation. The inside is much bigger than the outside. How is that possible.
    The inside is far away from the outside, so when you look at it, far away, it's much smaller. (Makes as much sense as the
    rest of this crap.)

  • Andy C
    Andy C

    The pyramids were built, no one knows how, why could the ark not be built? Mysteries all around and no answers.

  • Terry
    Terry

    The pyramids were built, no one knows how, why could the ark not be built? Mysteries all around and no answers.

    Not to be disagreeable, but; how the pyramids were built is very well known and understood!

    http://touregypt.net/construction/

    What we believe often comes from what we haven't learned yet as contrasted to what we know which comes from what we study and learn in detail.

  • Andy C
    Andy C
    Not to be disagreeable, but; how the pyramids were built is very well known and understood!

    No. How they were built is not very well know and understood. Your link provides an assumption as to the best method. There continues to be much debate on the how. None the less, this is about Noah's ark, not the pyramids. Carry on.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    OnTheWayOut,

    There is no way they would have built the bottom inside a frame, off the ground. Too big, too heavy, too much time. I imagine they would have coated and dried
    each piece of lumber before placing it on the level ground.

    I agree with you that the Ark story is a legend. Noah was given (or simply took) 100-years to build the Ark. So, time was not an issue. A scaffold type frame would be necessary, as the wood in contact with the ground for 100-years would have dry-rotted, and it would be too heavy to get to it. By using a scaffold, albeit a big strong set-up, they could coat the underside as it was built, and recoat it every few years as the rest of the Ark was constructed. Once the flood was about to start, Noah could break away the upper scaffold, and the Ark would simply rest on the base. When the rains came down, the Ark would float off the base.

    Of course, as you note, there are too many other logistical issues involved. Likewise, there are serious geological and physics issues which make the whole story nonsense.

    Jim Whitney

  • vomit
    vomit

    I always love ark threads even started my own.

    Somebody mentioned how the pyramids could of been built compared to the ark.

    Well the Egyptians had 500,000 plus year of human evolution and human ingenuity to work with. Developing tools over tens of thousands of years, wheels just came into use, even the technology was not global. The did this over 4000 years ago.

    Biblically this was just after the flood, around moses time. Its amazing how fast the technology in Egypt developed between the flood and when moses visited pharaoh.

    There were only 1600 before the flood between Adam and Noah, Adam must of spent a whole lot of time inventing things like saws, nails(copper, wood) the wheel? How did the people between Adam and Noah get to invent these things in just 1600 year. When its taken people living in reality hundreds of thousands of years to invent.

    OK tools required to build an ark of that proportions (off the top of my head)
    Saws,
    Copper Smelting Kilns ( + how many hundreds of tonnes of wood to replace fast wearing saws over 100 years)
    Pick axes for mining copper,
    Various stone hammers, (for making the saws, hammering in copper? nails)
    If nails are not used, chisels and fine saws, did Noah know how to make mortise and tenon joints or did he finish his wood work with nice dove tail joints?
    A tannery, (for making leather thongs for holding hammer heads etc. together.
    Wheels for moving that much wood. There were just 8 people.

    Just a small list, I could think up of thousands of tools required, somebody said he could use pitch, do you know how many tools/specialist people are required for making pitch for boats?

    To get the stupid shoe box shaped ark the WT advocates afloat with out collapsing in on itself would require the inside to be taken up with so much reinforcement there wouldn't be room for the animals. There is a reason boats are shaped like a boat, is that it reduced pressure over large surfaces.

    All this stuff was needed to be invented in 1600 years. I don't think so, how long did the transmission from bronze age to iron age take? There were thousands of inventors and millions of people working on tools and how to improve them. A 9 yo child can see how ridiculous the ark was, I did, but forced my brain to think Jehovah's way for far to long.


    Maybe Cain, when he was banished to a village (where did the village come from when there were only 7 people or so alive) did all the inventing.

  • vomit
    vomit

    Another question.

    If all the mountains etc, where thrown up after the flood, continents shifted etc. Why was the Euphrates's river in the exact same spot after the flood?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Noah's ark*

    Noah's ark is the boat built by the Biblical character Noah. At the command of God, according to the story, Noah was to build a boat that could accommodate his extended family, about 50,000 species of animals, and about one million species of insects. The craft had to be constructed to endure a divinely planned universal flood aimed at destroying every other person and animal on earth (except, I suppose, those animals whose habitat is liquid). This was no problem, according to Dr. Max D. Younce, who says by his calculations from Genesis 6:15 that the ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet deep. He says this is equivalent to "522 standard stock cars or 8 freight trains of 65 cars each."By some divine calculation he figures that all the insect species and the worms could fit in 21 box cars. He could be right, though Dr. Younce does not address the issue of how the big boxcar filled with its cargo rose with the rainwater level instead of staying put beneath the floodwaters.

    Those not familiar with the story might wonder why God would destroy nearly all the descendants of all of the creatures he had created. The story is that God was displeased with all of his human creations, except for Noah and his family. Annihilating those one is displeased with has become a familiar tactic of the followers of this and many other gods.

    Despite the bad example God set for Noah's descendants--imagine a human parent drowning his or her children because they were "not righteous"--the story remains a favorite among children. God likes good people. He lets them ride on a boat with a bunch of friendly animals. He shows them a great rainbow after the storm. And they all live happily ever after. Even adults like the story, though they might see it as an allegory with some sort of spiritual message, such as God is all-powerful and we owe everything, even our very existence to the Creator. Furthermore, the Creator expects us to behave ourselves. But there are many who take the story literally.

    According to the story told in chapter 7 of Genesis, Noah, his crew, and the animals lived together for more than 6 months before the floodwaters receded. There are a few minor logistical problems with this arrangement, but before getting to them, there is one other thing that needs commenting on. It is obvious that floods are no laughing matter. The destruction of life and property caused by floods has plagued many animals, not just humans, from time immemorial. To watch one's family or home swept away in floodwaters must be a terrible spectacle. To see one's children drown, one's life and dreams washed away in an instant, must be a devastating experience. But if one were to discover that the flood was not a whimsical effect of chance natural events, not unplanned and purposeless, but rather the malicious and willful act of a conscious being, one might add rage to the feelings of devastation. I suppose one could argue that it is God's world; he created it, so he can destroy it if he feels like it. But such an attitude seems inappropriate for an All-Good, Loving God.

    the "finding" of the ark

    Yet, as preposterous as this story seems, there are people in the twentieth century who claim they have found Noah's ark. They call themselves "arkeologists." Yes, they say that when the flood receded, Noah and his zoo were perched upon the top of Mt. Ararat in Turkey. Presumably, at that time, all the animals dispersed to the far recesses of the earth. How the animals got to the different continents, we are not told. Perhaps they floated there on debris. More problematic is how so many species survived when they had been reduced to just one pair or seven pairs of creatures. Also, you would think that the successful species that had the furthest to travel, would have left a trail of offspring along the way. What evidence is there that all species originated in Turkey? That's what the record should look like if the ark landed on Mt. Ararat.

    Still, none of this deters the true believer from maintaining that the story of Noah's ark is the God's truth. Nor does it deter those who think the ark has been found. For example, in 1977 a pseudo-documentary called "In Search of Noah's ark" was played on numerous television stations. CBS showed a special in 1993 entitled "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark." The first is a work of fiction claiming to be a documentary. The second was masterminded by George Jammal, who has admitted that the story was a hoax. Jammal said he wanted to expose religious frauds. His hoax was seen by about 20 million people, most of whom probably still do not know that Jammal did not want them to take it seriously.

    During his show, Jammal produced what he called "sacred wood" from the ark, which he later admitted was wood taken from railroad tracks in Long Beach, California, which he had hardened by cooking in an oven. He also prepared other fake wood by frying a piece of California pine on his kitchen stove in a mix of wine, iodine, sweet-and-sour and teriyaki sauces. He also admitted that he had never been to Turkey. The program was produced by Sun International Pictures, based in Salt Lake City, and responsible for several pseudo-documentaries on Nostradamus, the Bermuda Triangle, the Shroud of Turin, and UFOs.

    the evidence for a universal flood

    Stories of floods are not unique to the ancient Jews.* What geological or archaeological evidence is there of such a universal destruction of all human societies, all plants and all animals except for the ones on Noah's boat (or Ziusudra's [Sumeria], or Utnapishtim's [Babylon])? There should be a layer of sediment dating from the same time which contains all the bones of these poor creatures. There should be evidence that all human societies were wiped out simultaneously. No such evidence exists of a universal flood. Evidence of a great flood, perhaps caused by melting glaciers bursting through the Bosporus strait some 7,000 years ago, has been discovered off the coast of Turkey by Robert Ballard (who found the remains of the Titanic) and some (like Ryan and Pitman) have claimed this is evidence of Noah's flood, but this is pure and inane speculation. The Biblical flood is due to rain, not a bursting dam. As archeological anthropologist John Alden notes

    ...the story in the Bible is clear -- it rained for weeks before Noah's flood, and after it stopped raining the floodwaters receded. The Black Sea flood wasn't caused by rain, and after the water rose it never went away. And neither [the Sumerian nor the Biblical] story mentions the most dramatic consequence of the Black Sea flood, which turned fresh water into salt. Noah's flood, in short, doesn't sound anything like the inundation of the Black Sea.

    However, for the sake of argument, let's agree that there was a universal flood, but that somehow the evidence got twisted around so that geologically and archaeologically it doesn't appear that the flood occurred. There are still a few questions we should ask before accepting this theory. First, how big was this boat? The answer: really, really big! Would it float? Noah might have been given divine guidance here, so maybe this boat could float. Remember that this is all done before the discovery of metallurgy (or was it?), so the boat is made of wood and other natural materials. How many forests would it take to provide the lumber for such a boat? How many people working how many years would be required? Building a pyramid would be peanuts compared to building the ark. But remember, people lived a lot longer in those days. Noah was 600 years old when he built his giant boat in the desert.

    But let's say that, however implausible, such a boat could have been built using the technology of wooden-boat building known to the earliest peoples. After all, Noah allegedly had God's help in building his boat. There is still the problem of gathering the animals together from the various parts of the world that, as far as we know, Noah had no idea even existed. How did he get to the remote regions of the earth to collect exotic butterflies and Komodo dragons? How did he get all those species of dinosaurs to follow him home? (Fundamentalists believe dinosaurs and humans lived at the same time.) By the time he collected all his species, in twos and sevens, his boat would probably have rotted in the desert sun.

    But let's grant that Noah was able to collect all the birds and mammals, reptiles, and amphibians, and a couple of million insects that he is said to have gathered together on his boat. There is still the problem of keeping the animals from eating one another. Or, are we to believe that the lion was lying down with the lamb on the ark? Did the carnivores become vegetarians for the duration of the flood? How did he keep the birds from eating the insects? Perhaps the ark was stocked with foods for all the animals. After all, if Noah could engineer the building of a boat which could hold all those animals, it would have been a small feat to add room to store enough food to last for more than six months. Of course, Noah would have to store enough food for himself and his family, too. But these would have been minor details to such a man with such a plan guided by God.

    Still, it seems difficult to imagine how such a small crew could feed all these animals in a single day. There is just Noah, his wife, their three sons and three daughters-in-law. The "daily" rounds would take years, it seems. Delicacy forbids me from mentioning the problems of the "clean-up" detail, but I would have to say that if the noise of all those animals didn't drive Noah insane (not to mention the insect bites), the smell should have killed him. At least they didn't have to worry about water to drink. God provided water in abundance.

    Finally, belief in the universal flood or even belief in the building of the ark are not nearly as strange as the belief that this event of mass destruction was the direct work of the Creator to show anger at people who would dare to enjoy this life and have a good time rather than spend all their free time worshipping the Almighty.

    See alsofaith, miracle, and wishful thinking.

    further reading

    reader comments

    Cerone, Daniel, "Admitting 'Noah's Ark' Hoax," Los Angeles Times, October 30,1993, p. F-1.

    Feder, Kenneth L. Frauds, Myths and Mysteries - Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology 3rd ed. (Mountain View, California: Mayfield Publishing Company, 1998).

    Moore, Robert A. "The impossible voyage of Noah's ark," Creation/Evolution 11:1-43.

    Plimer, Ian. Telling Lies for God (Random House, 1994).

    * With apologies to those who take their Bible seriously. This article is not intended to be a piece of Biblical scholarship, but a piece mocking those who take the story of Noah and the ark literally, especially those who try to defend the literal story by scholarship or arkeological finds. (If I were to approach this subject as a scholar, I would trace the origin of the Biblical myth to its Sumerian/Akkadian/Babylonian origins. Read the Enuma Elish, the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Homer Smith's Man and His Gods.) Please don't write to tell me that insects weren't included because they breathe through tubes rather than nostrils or that since Noah only needed two of each type of animal he didn't need 2 donkeys, horses, and zebras, etc. Also, I realize that Noah's God is omnipotent, so Noah could accomplish any task as long as the Omnipotent One directs the show. No task would have been too difficult. And even though metallurgy was not being applied to shipbuilding in Noah's time the way it is with today's supertankers, I realize that despite the weird chronology used by literalists (creation in 4004 BCE), Noah must have lived in or after the Bronze Age and that his boat could have had a lot of metal in it. But I do not take the story literally, do not believe Noah was a real 600-year-old guy, and certainly do not believe he built a boat to hold animals while God flooded the world. It's a nice story for unsophisticated nomads of ancient times and for kids today, but excuse me if I can't take it seriously enough to be Biblical in my scholarship. Think about it. God is supposed to be perfect, yet he gets so angry with his creation he kills almost everybody and everything. Anger is an imperfection. We're supposed to be grateful he let a few folks live and they just happened to be his favorites, the ancestors of the chosen people, who just happened to compose and pass on the story.

    http://skepdic.com/noahsark.html

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    What amazes me about Noah and his family is they managed to build the ark inside of 120 years and still have time to preach the good news 10 hours per month.

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