by bob1999 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
My question was not one of doctrine. There can be no excuse to translate a word one way, when it suits one's doctrine, and another way when it does not. This is disingenuous, a lie plain and simple.
yup Some in the WT are "followers of followers and victims of victims"~Ray Franze and some are liars of liars and know full well what they have done to the Bible.
Bob:
It's called the doctrinal bias in translation. Many translators engage in it to some degree, but few so blatantly.
Craig:
Well put
To the outsider, it's plain to us that they're choosing the lesser definition to conform to their doctrine. Yet to the Witness, it's simply that they're conforming their doctrine to Scripture.
Luckily, we are able to refute this by going to older publications that have angels worshiping Jesus in Heb 1:6 and are now only doing obeisance to him. An obviously biased change.
My question was not one of doctrine. There can be no excuse to translate a word one way, when it suits one's doctrine, and another way when it does not. This is disingenuous, a lie plain and simple.
Bob1999--you stated the above. I would like to share with you some of the Hebrew and Greek words and their definitions directly from the Strong's Concordance:
Greek Words:
#3000--Latreuo--To minister (to God), i.e., render religious homage: serve, do the service, worship
#2151--Eusebeo--to be pious: i.e. (towards God), to worship, or (towards parents) to respect, (support)
#4576--Sebomai--to revere, i.e. to adore:--devout, religious, worship.
#4352--Proskuneo--to kiss, like a dog licking his masters hand: to fawn or crouch to, i.e. to prostrate oneself in homage, (do reverence to, adore)
Hebrew:
#5457--cegid--(chaldean), to fall down in homage (#5456 also)
#6087--atsab--to carve, i.e. fabricate or fashion; hence (in a bad sense) to worry, pain or angerL--displease grieve, hurt, make, be sorry, vex, worship, wrest.
#7812--Shacah--Prostrate in homage to ryalty or God: Bow down, crouch, fall down, humbly beseech, do obeisance, do reverence, worship.
There are hundreds of translations of the Bible. Different translators, likely governed by their theological views, tend to translate in such a way that it gives support to their notion of truth. I think you are wrong to consider it evil or disengenuous on their part to do so. That is a human thing to do. Likely, you do the same in areas of living that you apply the same lattitude.
However, I do agree with Bob completely--"that is called bias in translation".
Please believe me, I hate the WT Society. But there is a certain amount of "poetic license" for want of a better term with a hell of a lot of the Bible.
The WT doctrine re: Jesus is dishonoring, however their translation of the various words re: worship is within the parameters of reasonability.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Brant
Obeisence and Worship are both acceptable translations, as shown by De Bruhn in "Truth in Translation".
The bias occurs in that the WTS chooses to apply it as obeisance to Jesus and worship in most other situations, meaning that the NWT has moved from translation to interpretation of the word. However, it should be noted that most Bibles similarly add bias to the way they translate.
I made a number of posts on this topic, reviewing the LXX and NT occurrences of proskuneô, and I can't find them for the lack of a decent search function.
The best I can come up with is http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/124686/2205696/post.ashx#2205696
Shortly put: most Bible versions correctly translate proskuneô by different terms according to the context; we can blame the NWT, not for using two different words, but for choosing a dogmatic rather than a strictly linguistic line of demarcation between its two renderings. However the default meaning of proskuneô is definitely not the abstract "worship" but the concrete gesture of "bowing down, prostrate" which can be performed before either gods or men. "Worship" or "obeisance" can be inferred, by contextual implication, as the meaning of the gesture; but that does not make either the permanent meaning of the word.
It is much better imo to translate the word concretely ("bow down, prostrate") and let the context work out whatever relationship is implied. When a character who has barely heard about Jesus "bows down before him" in the Gospels, "worship" makes no sense. Not because it is Jesus but because of the narrative logic.
Sad days are these, when people will bow down to complete strangers in the street...
narkissos
Good post and nice reasoning. I agree with you. It all goes back to their damn attitude.
Brant
