Further incite on Dawkin's The God Delusion

by Abandoned 104 Replies latest jw friends

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    hey skyking,

    "Theory is sometimes derived as a speculation of ideas, assumptions, conjecture"

    in a court of law, for example, yes. as per how scientists use the term "theory", no.

    the late stephen j, gould touched on exactly this:

    In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

    peace out,

    tetra

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

    - Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Come on guys, give skyking a break! Everyone is entitled to thier personal opinions. I don't like Dawkins very much either. Lets face it, he is not everyone's cup of tea. Peace, Lilly

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    lilly,

    i used to talk exactly like skyking, about the difference between the the two ways of knowing the term "thoery". and i remember why, and it wasn't because i was well read on the subjecct, sorry. and i know from experience that when i realized how scientists actually viewed the theory of evolution, it changed the way i appraoched it, and why. it made a difference in my life. i know what satisfaction, even metaphysically speaking, knowing how the theory of evolutions works, can bring. i'm just trying to help a bro out. you know, i little nudge in the direction of an additional knowledge base that he can use. that's all. it's about expansion of consciousness in this area, a healthy notion. i just saw an opportunity to help him out is all.

    peace,

    tetra

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    tetra,

    I respect that your heart is in the right place. But we all walk our own paths in this life. And what we need to make life satisfying for us, may not be the same things that others need to make their lives satisfying. I'm glad that you found a path to follow that is helping you to experience personal growth and a broadening of your views, but someone else may not be as far along on thier path as you are on yours. After all life is a constant journey of learning new things. I think opening one's mind to other views is good, and you may want to help others to do this, but it may not ever change their views completely. And you have to understand that that is o.k. too. Because their personal views are just that, personal.

    You add a lot of debth to this forum and you are as passionate about your views I can tell, as I am about mine. But sometimes we really do have to season what we say, with a little salt. That makes it easier to swallow. Peace always, Lilly

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    for sure lilly. thanks.

    tetra

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    skyking

    Child

    By the way the only thing that I have been challenged on was my statement the Dawkins in closed minded.

    No you have also been accused of being closed minded and of not knowing what theory actually was due to using it in a way which showed you've no idea what it means in a scientific context, as well as characterising various of us and the scientific community as a whole as closed minded. Nice of you to keep up.

    It's been made very clear to you that science changes if shown to be wrong; religion and paranormal remains the same.

    Traditional ideas of Creation can be shown to be wrong, people retain other unsubstantiated beliefs associated with it. Paranormal events do not occur under scientific observation, but are treated as credible as those that can.

    Yes you are right there is not one chance in hell you could convenience me that Dawkins is not closed minded.

    Oh, you're so closed minded skyking!

    lovelylil

    Come on guys, give skyking a break! Everyone is entitled to thier personal opinions. I don't like Dawkins very much either. Lets face it, he is not everyone's cup of tea. Peace, Lilly

    Where has anyone been denied their personal opinions? People's personal opinions have been criticised, but this is a DISCUSSION board! Skyking variously criticises or ignores the scientific method and the results thereof. This doesn't bother me in the slightest, nor any scientist, as the scientific method encourages criticism.

    Yet skyking resents having the lack of evidence existing to support his opinions pointed out or having the credulity required to hold such opinions highlighted.

    After all life is a constant journey of learning new things.

    If only this were true for everyone. For some, it isn't. I don't expect skyking to change his tune.

    I do know from experience that such discussions with stalwart supporters of unscientific mumbo-jumbo, (whether it be new-age paranormal rubbish or traditional religious beliefs) is actually of great benefit to many whose opinions shift as they can see the unsupported fanciful nature of such belief systems exposed time and time again in discussion.

    You have to realise YOUR reaction to someone who worshipped a small rock they called Henry, whom they credited with Creation, 9/11 and tooth-decay, who held that catsup and plastic were the sole causes of cancer, would be roughly the same as mine to many claims by religious people or paranormalists.

    I think people instinctively defend the beliefs of people whose beliefs conform to the same level of viability as those; people who believe in fairies don't throw stone at those who believe in Unicorns or UFO's. This is because people are aware if they critique the belief of someone whose beliefs are as supported or unsupported as theirs they are opening theirs to such criticism.

    Obviously this means that scientists defend other scientists; but the scientific method corrects error so the viability of such things is high.

    Religious and paranormal belief do not correct their errors; they ignore them or paper-over them.

  • skyking
    skyking

    Not one time have I said that the theory of evolution is not supported by known facts. Not once. What I said was there is now a theory that melds the paranormal and science together. It is called the String Theory. Top theorist believe this theory is true and liken the rest of the scientist too the scientist in the past that refused to believe what was right in front of them.

    Abaddon you have been harsh in your posts and PM's too me and others on this thread. You must be very smart and your IQ must be out of this world. I have a 130 in language skills and 150 in math and science. With a person so smart as you are please go back and re-read my posts then you will see I never said the things you are attacking me on. Science does support my statements, Yes I agree the majority of scientist right now do not, but the majority did not believe in heavier than air flight. That little tiny bugs cause sicknesses.

    I hope Dawkins opens his mind because I think his understanding of the world is going to change and he might have to do some damage control.

    So to recap never did I say the Theory of evolution was not on solid ground. I said Dawkins is closed minded and I stand solidly on this, it is only my opinion. I said there is a theory now that explains the paranormal this is true there is a viable new theory this is the Theory that explains everything.. the smartest theorist in the world beleive this theory is true. So why am I so dumb as to believe it? Thats right because you say I dumb and your IQ is so high.

  • jimbo
    jimbo

    "No way in hell can you convince me that I am dogmatic." New quote of the year!!!

    Sorting false from true is my new favorite occupation. As long as the debate continues "The jury is still out."

    Don't you agree Abaddon???

    jimbo (of the open to debate class) (mostly a lurker,reader)

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    In support of skyking, if you go back and re-read his posts, he is right. He NEVER said anything against evolution at all. He simply stated that he does not like Dawkins. As a matter of fact, Skyking said over and over he does not believe in the personal God that some on this board believe in. And believes the scientific support in evolution. I think he is being lumped together with all the other believers who are anti-evolution and being chastised because many here do not believe in a God at all. He also is just trying to show that there are other theories out there and a theory is acuatlly nothing more than an "educated" guess. I understand what the premise is and that is - the theory is based upon the evidence being more in favor of the theory than against it. This is true with evolution. However, what happens if the "evidence" changes sometime in the future? Than the theory needs to be re-evaluated and can change. That is all skyking is trying to say. Nothing more.

    Who knows 1,000 years from now what the theory will be then. And just for the record, there are old earth creationists that believe in a God and evolution. Lilly

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