Skyking, I will be back to answer the other questions later on today. I have not forgotten.
Peace
Question, What will happen to the earth and the Animals?
by unbaptized 39 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Mikeus
jwfacts: Not to make any waves or anything, but you'll notice Rev 19:1 is before the battle of Armageddon and also before the creation of the new heavens and new earth. Rev 6:9,10 reveals that martyred souls wait in Heaven with God, crying out for the Lord to act. Paul reveals in 2 Cor 5:1,8 and Phil 1:23 that for the Christian to be absent from his earthly body is to be at home with Jesus in Heaven. I believe this shows us that at this time we will live with God in Heaven until the final eradication of sin.
Rev 21:2 then speaks of the new Jerusalem "coming out of heaven from God". In Rev 21:3, God declares His dwelling place will be with the righteous men in the holy city. I believe this is the purpose of the new earth.
Revelations is a tricky book because it's so heavily symbolic and everyone has their own opinions of it. For example, 144,000 perhaps isn't an exact number but more of a representation of something, like the 666. For the Jews, the number 6 represented the number of man. Man was created on the 6th day. At the time of the writing of Revelation, the Roman Emperors, or Caesars, were considered divine beings. Citizens were required to prove their loyalty to the State by offering incense as a sacrifice of worship to the Emperor as a god of Rome. The number value of the alphabet of Nero Caesar's name added up to 666. Thus, this number was the number of a Man who symbolized all of man's rebellion against God by making himself to be a god and by requiring others to worship him. My point is that the worship of the beast is the worship of a human being, swearing allegiance to a human being and a human system of government and economics as one's chief loyalty and object of devotion.
But who knows. I never bothered with Revelations much because it is truly such a grey area when it comes in interpretation.
Respectfully, Mikeus -
james_woods
It always comes to me as an amazement at the number of people who claim to have an exact answer on this type of thing.
Especially when practically every person in history tried to do the same puzzle, and all came up with a different answer.
So, what in the world makes each of these amatuer bible interpreters right? It is really tantamount to claiming to be the new Laodecian Messenger in the manner of old bearded C.T.Russell. And we all know where his sacred pyramid chronology got him.
Can it really be that hard to admit that we just simply do not know?
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Golf
Only the Creator of the earth and animals knows. When you go to work, do you tell your boss what to do?
Golf -
Undecided
Let's see, who should I agree with? Maybe I'll have 70 virgins up there, maybe I'd rather be Soloman here with 700. Maybe I should try to be like Christ and not have any women. There must be something sacred about women though, since the bride of Christ comes from both men and women, so the men must be changed to women.
Maybe I should just stay here and pet the lions since they will eat straw like the Ox. Maybe I could knock one of those riders in Rev off his horse and ride it forever.
I think I will wait for a revelation from God to get my mind straightened out so I can understand what the hell he's talking about in the sacred books.
Ken P.
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startingover
It always comes to me as an amazement at the number of people who claim to have an exact answer on this type of thing.
Especially when practically every person in history tried to do the same puzzle, and all came up with a different answer.
So, what in the world makes each of these amatuer bible interpreters right? It is really tantamount to claiming to be the new Laodecian Messenger in the manner of old bearded C.T.Russell. And we all know where his sacred pyramid chronology got him.
Can it really be that hard to admit that we just simply do not know?
Great comment.
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james_woods
Sometimes I do, Golf...but, then that can have the effect of eventually getting you a new boss (in a new company).
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lovelylil
unbaptized,
The arguement that not all Christians can go to heaven because some have to rule over the others only exists in the WT. Jesus is the High Priest for all believers. If you believe in him, his sacrifice covers your sin. You are in no more need of any others, especially not fellow Christian priests in heaven to make any atonement for you. Jesus already did that. That is why all believers in him will be in heaven with him. Some will be Kings and some Priest, all will be in heaven. Also, do not confuse the "reign" in heaven with "ruling" over the earth. While Christians are in heaven enjoying Christ's company - they are not ruling over anyone. Being in heaven with Jesus is what the "first resurrection" is. See Revelation 20:4-6
Can you show me one text that says some Christians will rule over others? There is no such thing.
Now, about the rest of mankind;
The WT does not believe that Christ's ransom was to save ALL mankind. Not just Christians. Many other churches are wrong in this teaching too. But Jesus can to save ALL and to restore ALL things in heaven and upon earth. When the kingdom comes down to earth, ALL the rest of mankind (unbelievers) will have a chance to choose to live under that arrangement. That is why they are before the judgement seat. These are NOT Christians, for if they are, is the WT saying that Christians are judged twice? One prior to the Kingdom coming (now) and once again later? That makes no sense. They also teach the future testing time when Satan is loosed again is another test for Christians? That means 3x we are tested. No, the future testing time is for unbelievers AFTER they are given opportunity to accept Christ.
The unbelievers will have thier hearts and minds opened first by Christ in order to accept him. IF they accept him, they will be likend to "sheep" but if they reject him, even knowing he is a righteous King here to benefit them, they are likend to "goats". Because they stubbornly refuse to obey and only these ones are cut off from earth forever. Unlike the WT teaches, these ones will be few in number. Not 99.9% of mankind. Even the WT now admits that the seperating of the sheep and goats happens at a later, not prior to his reign but during his riegn on earth. But what they fail to understand is that this is the rest of mankind who is being seprated by Christ, not believers in him. And this seperating does not take place in only one day, but over a period of time. Although Russell got some things wrong, such as limiting the church to 144,000, he got right the fact that ALL believers are to enter the heavenly realm. (btw. this does not mean they cannot come back to earth like the WT teaches) And that eventually ALL the rest of mankind will be drawn to Jesus too.
So you see, ONLY Christians recieve the reward of imortal life and the ability to go into the heavenly realm to be with Christ. The rest of mankind, although they will benefit from the Kingdom, and can attain life on earth again, are not given imortal bodies. Or the opportunity to be part of God's government. But the only hope held out right now is the hope of imortal life and entering the heavenly realm. This hope is likened to entering the narrow gate, this "gate" is Jesus and it is a reference to the heavenly hope. The rest of mankind is on the broad road to "destruction" but this word "destruction" means Judgement, not a literal destruction. Another term used is "condemnation". (look it up in a good concordance) Although the earth will be restored later, no one is being offered everlasting life on earth at this time. Christ's body is still being gathered, particualary the gentile part of his Church and he does not "rule" without all of them, as they are part of the heavenly government. The WT in setting up the "two classes" of Christians has tried to close the door to the heavenly hope. This hope is still avaiable and ALL believers must become "born again" or "spirit anointed" to enter it. And the WT also tries to say most of mankind will be destroyed? That is an abomination that goes against the teachings of the Bible. Christ came to save ALL, but he will draw each group to him in due time.
For more about the heavenly heirs, or if you have any questions about what I wrote here, please pm me your email address and I can send you some more information. I know its a lot to take in, Peace, Lilly
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ allwill be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power
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skyking
I do know the environment that Paul lived in at the time. There was a struggle for the christian identity. You had many different ideas leveraging for dominance. The Christianity that we see today was not so cut and dried. The Jew's, the Egyptians and also the Pagan's had what you call the "Mysteries" only a few special religious persons could attain to this high religious state they actually had to be trained, after attending the mystery schools they could go out and help others spiritually. What is of interest to me is the Third Heaven the Third Heaven was a concept taught during the awakenings called the Mysteries. Jesus most certainly had to have been a graduate of the Mysteries. You should study the first 200 years of Christianity this study will wake you up to the real facts of Christianity not the facts that the Catholic Church wanted the world to know and taught by every Christian church ever since including the JW's. You should read first the book called "The Jesus Mysteries" by Timothy Freke & Peter Gandy but Only read this book if you want to know the real facts of the early Christians. This book is life changing.
Open your mind Paul had to be referring to the concept that the readers of that day already know of the third heavens or he would of explained what it was so as not to confused the Third Heaven to a teaching that was Pagan. The reason he did not exspain it further was the reader already know what the Third Heaven was. If I told you I was transferred into a 'Confession Booth' you would know exactly what I was talking about. Paul had to be referring to the concept that people already know at that time. I will not tell you what they thought at Paul's time the Third Heavens was you need to look beyond what you have been told.
I know that JW answer to the Third heaven. Your response sounded almost exactly how I would have responded ten years ago. At Paul's day they believed that there were actually seven heavens.
I'll give you something to think about have you ever looked at the sons of the true God "Osiris-Dionysus" lived hundreds of years before Jesus.
They were born from a Virgin
Born in cowshed on Dec 25th
Baptised to represent rebirth for people
Turned water into wine at a marriage ceremony
Rode triumphantly into town on a Donkey waving Palm branches
Had twelve apostles
Healed the lame, blind etc...
Raised the Dead
Apostles broke bread and drink wine to represent Osiris-Dionysus body and blood
Crucified for our sins on Easter time
Raised on the third day by God
Followers await for their return to judge mankind.
There are more the seven such GOD MEN or as we call them Christ's that are said to have lived before Jesus. Each one did at least some of the exsact miracles credited to Jesus. Matter of fact not even one of Jesus life's story's was first done by him. Everything was first done by one of these seven Christ that lived before him. Certainly makes a person think does it not. Why was Jesus so unimaginative he could not come up with an original action or thought? Why did he copy pagan Christ's?
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lovelylil
skyking,
You are correct about the "third heaven". The book of Enoch also mentions different heavens or parts of heavens. And Enoch said he traveled to many heavens. The WT response to Pauls words about the third heaven is laughable. They say it was an expression of delight such as someone saying "I'm in 7th heaven". But you are correct, he was referring to an actual place he called "third heaven". And they did believe at that time that there were many different abodes or parts of heaven.
Think of it this way too, we think of heaven already as 2 places. The first being were the birds fly, and the second being the dwelling place of God. What would preclude there being other heavens, possibly in between these two heavens. Nothing. Lilly