Christ's coming (erchomai)--what event?

by M.J. 16 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  I don't mind discussing these things at all. I'm still trying to figure out exactly where I stand with the scriptures. And none of my present beliefs are set in stone. So I welcome discussing them anytime and appreciate your views.

  With Matthew 25 I was trying to show that there are two widely accepted interpretations of this text. That is why I gave both. Also, just to let you know, I never came to the conclusion that God's plan was to convert whole nations of people from the WT or Russell. I got this conclusion by reading the scritpures on my own. I just wanted to let you know, I am not influenced currently by the WT. I also did not agree with many of their teachings while I was a Witness.

  about being hungry, thirsty, unclothed, etc. I don't think this is supposed to be taken literally. This is an illustration to teach a lesson. I believe it is showing that the judgement of all non-believers will be on the treatment they give to God's people. Whether the time period was in Jesus day, or now, or during the Millennial age. Of course people can be judged by their actions now especially if they persecute God's people but they will not be aware of their wrongdoing until they are before the throne of Christ. That is when their judgement day arrives. Then if they repent, I believe they will be allowed into the kingdom. Remember Ninevah, this whole nation had judgement declared onto them for their wrongdoings but they repented and were spared.

  About the text in Acts 15. I'm glad you posted that one. This is a quotation taken from Amos 9:11,12. Some see this as setting forth a sequence of the end times including 1. the church age (taking out a people for himself or Christians). Verse 14 - This is the time we are still in. 2. The restoration of Isreal in fulfillment of the Abrahamic convenant.Verse 16 and 3. The final salvation of the rest of the Gentiles. Ones that are not converted yet upon Christ's arrival. Verse 17-18. We are in the end times or last days now and have been I believe since Christ's incarnation. But this is another whole discussion.

  One more thing on Matthew 25, I see the church being rewarded or chatised first. Then Christ sitting on the throne to judge all others. Israel first then the rest of the Gentiles. This is done during the same time period but is not one literal day. Again, I think Russell was correct on this but I did not get this view from him. There are many other Christians I know who have this same view.

  About converting the nations. There are way too many OT prophecies concering this to list here. Maybe next week I will start a new thread on this topic and we can discuss there. My belief is that a loving God would and could convert all peoples in the world. And at least open their eyes and hearts to the truth about his son so that they can accept it. someone once asked me if God had it in his power to make himself known to all mankind and did not do it, would I consider him a loving God. My answer is no. And gladly I found that God IS going to try to convert all mankind. (the ransom was for ALL, not some) Of course some will still be stubborn goats and not obey. But most likely 99.9% of mankind will convert and be saved. A constant theme thru out the whole Bible is the restoration of all things. All God's prophets fortold this event. And when Jesus comes again, this will be put into motion.

  Acts 3:21
  He (Jesus) must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets

  Peace, Lilly
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  Narkissos

  Thank you lovelylil,

  I'm still surprised when you present such a view as "widely accepted," but that may well be because we don't live on the same continent. Most Evangelical theologians I know, in particular, would strongly reject the idea of judgement as an opportunity to repent (which in a way is closer to the Catholic teaching of purgatory, although collective and future rather than individual and, as it were, parallel to history).

  Also, don't misunderstand me. When I studied theology after leaving the WT my reaction to "orthodoxy" was a strongly universalistic one -- which got me in some more trouble, but that's another story. And I didn't mean 99 % -- the hundredth sheep is that which really matters. In fact I would not be interested in a "redemption" that would not redeem, not only every "being," but every "moment" in history. It's interesting that Origen came to a similar concept with his take on "the restoration of all things" (apokatastasis pantôn, Acts 3:21).

  But here philosophy (or the lack thereof) necessarily steps in. Is eternity the mere continuation of time? Or the opposite of time? Iow, is it endless or timeless? Or, could it be another perspective on time itself?
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  lovelylil

  Narkissos,

  You present good questions for deep thought, but there is no easy answers that is for sure. I know many who believe the same thing I do, But I will admit that most do not agree with the restitution of all things and the ransom for all. Most Churches teach that the time is right now to accept Christ and if not, upon his arrival you will either go to hellfire or 2nd death.

  I've never agreed with this teaching for a lot of reasons. One, the Bible Says that the ransom is for ALL, and this fact will be testified in due time. What time is due time? It was not in the Apostles day for that is when this statement was made. How do we know it is now? I don't believe it is, I believe that "due time" is after the current age. Secondly, according to many scriptures, the one in Acts 15 is only one, God takes out a gentile population for himself and then turns attention to the Jewish nation again. He is not finished with that nation. Paul said that God did not reject Israel but put them in a spiritual darkness until the full number of these Gentiles comes in (Romans 11). Then after the attention is turned to Israel and they repent and God forgets the sin of their forefathers, whole nations are converted. And this was testified by every single prophet of God. The final reason is God is Love, A loving God would do ALL in his power to open peoples hearts to him and to show them that he is real in order to save them. I know I would and it would offend my sense of justice not to do this. and God is much higher in justice then we are.

  If this is true, then why do most churches teach the opposite - because fear is what keeps the pulpits full! But God does not want us to worship him out of fear, but out of love. They use examples like the destruction of Sodom and Gemorrah and the ancient nations to scare people. But, would you be surprised to learn that every single one of them will be released from death and their destruction was not as an example of what will happen if we disobey God during this age, but rather in the next age? Their fiery destruction (with literal fire)was an example of the next type of fiery destruction only that one will be forever. (lake of fire). I'm currently working on a short article about the ransom for all and the converting of the nations. It will take some time to complete but I will post it on the forum. Then we can discuss in more detail. Since you studied theology, I would be interested in your opinions.

  Anyway, thanks for all your time on this. Lilly
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  M.J.

  Thanks for your thoughts, Lilly. Although I guess my question was somewhat rhetorical.

  What gets me is that the WTS refers to Christ's "coming" (erchomai) as "the day of Jehovah", and his "presence" (parousia) as his invisible return in 1914. But they don't tell you that the word they usually translate as "coming" (erchomai) is used in the parable of the "Faithful Discreet Slave", in explicit parallel to its usage throughout the Matt 24-25 conversation. It is no wonder the NWT in that parable (24:46) does not translate the word as "coming" but as "arriving"...It's the ONLY time in this story the word "erchomai" is not translated as "coming"!

  Great point, ML, about "parousia" being used interchangeably with "erchomai". In fact, I can see they are explicitly made equivalent to one another in 24:27: "For as lightning that comes [exerchomai] from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming [parousia] of the Son of Man".

  On top of that, it's even blatantly obvious that "parousia" in 24:36-39 is used in the way the WTS reserves for Christ's "coming":

  No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming [parousia] of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming [parousia] of the Son of Man.

  Thanks Leo, for the good info on the other parallels. It is very interesting that the WTS orients every illustration given by Jesus to the "day of Jehovah" EXCEPT the Faithful Discreet Slave thing. THAT one now sticks out like a sore thumb more than ever. IN FACT, yesterday's Watchtower study featured an interesting statement:

  Emphasizing the importance of keep­ing in expectation of Jehovah's day, Jesus warned that even some of his followers would lose their sense of urgency. He fore­told about them: "If ever that evil slave should say in his heart, `My master is delay­ing,' and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not ex­pect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity." (Matthew 24:48-51) In contrast, the faithful and discreet slave class loyally keeps its sense of urgency. The slave class has kept on the watch and proved itself ready. Jesus has appointed it "over all his belongings" here on the earth.-Matthew 24:42-47.

  What the heck? Here they're confusing the issue totally. They apply it to a future expectation, when the text is clearly in reference to something the WTS says occurred in the past...

  And Narkissos for that bit of info regarding Aramaic. Sheesh, you know Aramaic too?
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  lovelylil

  M.J.

  Thats what I get for reading to fast, I mised the point. By at least I had a nice conversation with Narkissos.

  Good point you brought out on this thread. I often wondered too why that one "coming" is translated as "arrived". Of course they had to have the faithful slave in place to set up their organization. When like you said the whole point is to be on the watch for we don't know when Christ will arrive. I argued this point with Bible Students for almost 3 years. They are just as stumbled on this simple text as JW's are. Peace, Lilly
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  Terry

  I think a more interesting and practical way of looking at judgement scriptures is to dispense with the idea that they were ever inspired by a supernatural being intent on doing something according to a plan and a timetable.

  I prefer to look at scriptures dealing with comings and judgements as being cobbled together over a long stretch of time and infrequently "updated" or revised according to the beliefs, arguments and debates of the era in which they were tweeked.

  With the above in mind, it would be entirely unnecessary for a supernatural being such as God or the resurrected Jesus to have to literally RETURN to the proximity of humans in order to deal with them because the distance between men and heaven is not an issue in terms of the power to execute judgment.
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  Rick C.

  Greetings JWDF posters (and a special Hi to Narkissos & Leolaia)...My old nick was "rick_here"...I come around every now and again to see what you scholarly-types are up to.
  
  I've never been a Jehovah's Witness. However, I was raised as a Dispensationalist in a Pentecostal church. (Btw, JW's are Dispensationalists...just like the fundamentalists).
  
  At any rate, after being really puzzled about Eschatology (study of the last things) for a long, long time; I learned about a view called "Partial Preterism", the view I now hold.
  
  In a nutshell Partial Preterism is the view that some prophecies such as those in The Olivet Discourse (Matt 24) and its Synoptic paralles were fulfilled in 70AD...while some await fulfillment at The Second Advent (or second coming of Christ).
  
  A Bible teacher named Steve Gregg has some free mp3 lectures on this if anyone is interested. Under Topical Lectures: "When Shall These things Be?" and the Verse-By-Verse Teaching on "Revelation" (especially the "Introduction" ones) are informative on various views. After presenting them (he also covers JW eschatology to some extent) Gregg offers his view (Partial Preterist, Amillennial):
  http://www.thenarrowpath.com/
  
  I used to have a hard time posting here...'hope this goes through!
  Be well,
  Rick