crisis of conscience

by cyrus 69 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  TheListener

  The Listener said,

  One thing I've learned since leaving the dubs; don't judge others (unless you have jury duty, or children, or a wife, or any other family, or perhaps at work with an employee or employer, or....well I don't know but judging isn't nice).

  Terry, I really didn't like the tone of your posts on this thread. I know, I know, that doesn't mean much.

  Ray Franz's books gave me the courage to break free from the witnesses. That is a gift I can never repay.

  Terry replied,

  Don't you get it? Personal integrity consists of telling the truth even when others are made uncomfortable or you yourself are put in an awkward position.

  My "tone" is clear. Nobody else points out these things because ONLY the good that Franz has done with his book is praised and all else ignored. I'm not judging him nor am I condemning him. I was answering a question raised under the discussion topic. I replied why I thought the "tone" of Crisis of Conscience was creepy.

  Can we ever get to a point we tell things "like it is" without tip-toeing?

  I have a couple thoughts on this. I tried to be forthright and tactful in saying that I didn't like the tone of your posts about Ray. We may disagree but I didn't beat around the bush, I was honest, forthright and clear. I thought. You may feel that you are not judging him or condeming but I feel that is exactly the tone your posts have taken. I don't feel like taking the time to copy/paste each statement you made wherein you made assumptions of Ray's possible choices and outcomes for different actions or how and what he felt like. I think that is unfair of you. Some have stated that they are disappointed that Ray wrote in support of the 607 date while knowing it was unsupportable. That is an opinion and who can say they are wrong for it? Isn't that the point of holding an opinion on a subject where feelings and emotions are involved? Was Ray wrong? right? Did the members of the dub body benefit or suffer based on Ray's decisions? The answers to these questions could be debated until time ends (if it ever does) but a conclusion could never be reached because the discussions would be based on personal feelings. It appears to me as I read your posts, and I say appears to me to indicate that I clearly may be incorrect and it may appear otherwise to someone else, that you do not agree with how Ray handled his Crisis of Conscience and all of the bits and pieces of political intrigue that went along with it. OK fair enough. I equally disagree and feel, based on my own anecdotal evidence that he did the best he could given the circumstances given - of course anecdotal evidence won't sway anyone - but it's good enough for me. AS and Terry - your discussion has taxed my dictionary and tired my brain. Please stop doing that. :)
• 

  Terry

  I trusted what I read in the Watchtower. I trusted what I read in their publications. I trusted the people in charge because, bottom line, I fully expected them to have the integrity to say what they truly believed to be true.

  Here is the irony of all this. A lie is saying the opposite of what you hold to be true in your own mind. It would appear the other members of the Governing Body were not lying and Ray Franz was. This would be specifically in regards to the phoney 607 date and the bogus "scholarship" supporting it. Isn't that sad?

  Think of a pharmacist who discovers that the medicine he is being paid to dispense contains a slow poison. Should he immediately do everything in his power to stop the medicine from being given to the trusting people who fill their prescriptions? Or, knowing the consequences, should he go ahead and fill the prescriptions because the patient's doctor is the one in charge of their health? That, to my mind, is a no-brainer.

  The man who discovered what was true went ahead and signed off on more doses of poison for the rest of his brothers and sisters in Kingdom Halls across the world with KNOWLEDGE that what he was sending was a LIE; this man should at least be used as an example of cognative dissonant disconnect with personal ethics and integrity.

  Should we be grateful that Franz eventually blew the whistle and gave interviews? Certainly! Should we be happy that a great number of confused and depressed people used his book to make an intelligent decision to move forward in their lives? Certainly! Kudos to Franz.

  Good intentions are just peachy, but; they aren't grounds for a whitewash.

  I wish Ray Franz well in his life. I'm just miffed that anybody reading Aid to Bible Understanding gained confidence in the Watchtower's stranglehold on phoney "Truth" for a second longer due to Franz's (earliest) actions.
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  Robert222

  I've just started reading crisis of conscience and a lot of these posts I've read here make sense. In a way I feel he is protecting the society, and some of the points Franz makes don't seem that big of a deal. I find my mind wandering or skipping over parts - Not really a great expose. However, i will keep reading.
• 

  Terry

  I've just started reading crisis of conscience and a lot of these posts I've read here make sense. In a way I feel he is protecting the society, and some of the points Franz makes don't seem that big of a deal. I find my mind wandering or skipping over parts - Not really a great expose. However, i will keep reading

  Watchtowerspeak is a lot of stage-setting. The payoff is not so much logically following from premise to conclusion as it is being forcefed your conclusion by having your alternative viewpoints strangled and left by the wayside.

  Franz is most effective when he isn't stage-setting. He is effective in printed documents which present glaring evidence of duplicity, double-talk and heinous disrespect for the quality of human life in arbitrarily enforcing doctrines and orthodoxies that support their ideology.

  The expose' is telling and damning. I'd love to see an expurgated version that leaves out Franz and concentrates on the Watchtower's purposeful duplicities historically.

  All the active JW's I've spoken to (or who would allow the subject to be discussed) always trip over Ray Franz himself whom they see has talking out of both sides of his mouth to exonerate his actions.
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  AuldSoul

  All the active JW's I've spoken to (or who would allow the subject to be discussed) always trip over Ray Franz himself whom they see has talking out of both sides of his mouth to exonerate his actions.

  Then you will probably enjoy my book, Terry. I don't apologize for myself at all. I don't even mention myself except by way of establishing credential for the weight of the points the book makes.

  It isn't an historical list, but it is a guide for friends and family of JWs—more specifically, bible studies of JWs. It is not an alternate theology guide or a "gotcha" guide. It is a guide on understanding and reasoning with someone who has been poisoned by JW thinking. Mostly, how to be non-confrontational (I never claimed to practice what I preach ). I really am a lot less confrontational with people who know me.

  I am sure you know that a stranger's non-confrontational words can mean nothing to a JW while a friend's or relative's can have real and lasting impact on their thinking/conduct/choices. This guide is designed to keep from further alienating interested/baptized JWs through irrational knee-jerk reactions or poor choice of points to raise (e.g. "Trinity", "Hellfire", "Last Days", etc.; the "hot" topics they have canned responses on).

  It is coming along nicely, many chapters done. It starts with explaining the many things "Jehovah's Witnesses" means to one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and will end with appendices including (among other things) a concise chronology of some notable documented incidents of duplicity.
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  Terry

  I am sure you know that a stranger's non-confrontational words can mean nothing to a JW while a friend's or relative's can have real and lasting impact on their thinking/conduct/choices. This guide is designed to keep from further alienating interested/baptized JWs through irrational knee-jerk reactions or poor choice of points to raise (e.g. "Trinity", "Hellfire", "Last Days", etc.; the "hot" topics they have canned responses on).

  It is coming along nicely, many chapters done. It starts with explaining the many things "Jehovah's Witnesses" means to one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and will end with appendices including (among other things) a concise chronology of some notable documented incidents of duplicity

  Sounds like a winner!

  So far, the books I've read have all lacked severally three things:

  1.A sense of what is MOST important for an already convinced JW to want to read contrary data in a neutral frame of mind.

  2. A presentation of contradictory views which do not automatically trigger the knee-jerk defense mechanisms.

  3.A clear path to choices beyond being a member of an indoctrinated religion. If you take something away from a person you create a hole in them which must be filled.

  Best of luck and success on your book.
• 

  lowden

  Some have stated that they are disappointed that Ray wrote in support of the 607 date while knowing it was unsupportable. That is an opinion and who can say they are wrong for it? Isn't that the point of holding an opinion on a subject where feelings and emotions are involved? Was Ray wrong? right?

  Listener!! Wadya mean 'Was Ray right or wrong?' WHAT THE....?

  Hear this! If you were a policeman gathering witness statements that would potentially put a long held colleague who is accused of murder behind bars and you ingnored ALL the witnesses, ALL of whom knew he'd done the deed, thus letting him go free...............?

  What sort of policeman would that make you??

  What sort of human being would that make you??

  Such moral abdication would make you lily-livered, cowardly, dastardly and deeply reprehensible in the eyes of all who possess a 'just' mind.

  There is simply NO defence for such actions.

  Some opinions are quite clearly wrong! They are wrongly held.

  I can't believe that this is even being given a counter argument. It is a counter argument that has as much strength and structure as a pile of dust.

  Lowden
• 

  AuldSoul

  Lowden: Such moral abdication would make you lily-livered, cowardly, dastardly and deeply reprehensible in the eyes of all who possess a 'just' mind.

  I don't believe Ray glosses over the gravity of the error one whit. I think he now views himself and his actions at that time in much the way you described him.

  However, if the policeman were the Chief of Police and hoped that the corruption in the police department could eventually be rooted out completely by internal reforms and forgave a DWI traffic violation at the request of the Commissioner on that basis (something that he didn't believe would kill or had killed anyone), he might feel incredibly different about the decision if he later discovered that this "favor" cost someone dearly, even to their life.

  The perspective we currently hold is the only basis by which any of us can make decisions. All it takes for our 20/20 hindsight to kick in is time and a new perspective.

  A crisis of conscience is like "new perspective" to the power of 10.

  I also don't think anyone actually defended Ray's choice, only stated a recognition that the outcomes of any other choice can't possibly be known by anyone. Maybe the way he did it is exactly the best possible way for it to have worked out. Probably not. And who can say?

  I took that as Listener's meaning.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  james_woods

  I am going to say this again: For every one Ray Franz or Ed Dunlap, there were certainly 10 or more "wavering" Bethelites who did not have the guts to leave or make their feelings clear.

  You have to remember that if Ray had not stayed around to debate the issue with his uncle and the others on the GB, we would never have this glimpse into what GB meetings are really like. It is fascinating to read practically a religious sequel to the RJR board fending off a takeover attempt! Real "holy spirit" going on there, huh?

  I guess you could also single out things that Barbara Anderson or others have done/not done that you don't much care for, but that does not take away the value that the high profile WT reformers have given to exposing the enormous wrongs that this religion has done.
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  sixsixsixtynine

  I agree that many of Ray's actions seemed to be cowardly and self-serving. He clearly states that he would have quietly remained a Witness had they not came after him. And while CoC is without a doubt the most influential ex-JW book, it's doubtful that we would have ever heard any of this inside information if the WTBTS hadn't initiated their slander campaign against Franz. Only when HIS good name was being dragged through the mud, did he find it necessary to write the book. Again, the importance and impact of CoC is enormous among exjw's. But, to me a lot of the opinions (esp. Terry's)about Franz' character on this thread ring true.