Do JW’s qualify as Christ disciples based on John 13:34, 35?

by Sola Scriptura 51 Replies latest jw friends

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  AuldSoul

  Welcome, Sola Scriptura and inlove2!

  Sola,

  I have to answer no, but it is not out of meanness or spite.

  If the only measure of "love among yourselves" was whether or not they engaged in military service, my answer would be different. As it is, I must honestly evaluate how they treat one another.

  (1) Single parents or people without children are frequently not included in purely social gatherings that are arranged. When my wife and I decided to reach out to these folks we heard repeated thanks and gratitude for the interest ... they had been starved for attention and affection. Love is not at the meetings only is it?

  (2) For some reason, they have a disciplinary/counsel system that is more draconian than the one employed by the Pharisees. You may not agree, at first, but they have private confidential trials that the accused cannot have witnessed or recorded even if he or she desires to. This is well beyond even the travesty of the nighttime trial of Jesus. It allows decisions to be made that cannot fairly be appealed, the appeal is entirely based on whatever notes the elders made and on their inarguably partial recollections versus the victim of the unscriptural trial.

  As a result of the private nature and unlike Hymenaeus, Philetus, Nicolaus, etc. we have no idea why anyone is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Therefore, the vast majority of "brothers" and "sisters" who reject one who is announced as no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses have no idea whether or not the person really did anything that merited the punishment.

  I cannot find any means by which I can label the shammata (expulsion from the synagogue) as they practice it an act of love. It is an act of hatred. It is divisive of families, a trait Jesus said those who weren't his would be characterized by.

  There are other signs of a deep and active lack of love, like imposing upon sheeplike ones burdens that the Bible does not require. How do you demonstrate love by accepting and encouraging others to accept heavier burdens than Jesus gave?

  Maybe you thought it was a demonstration of love of Jesus to labor under a burden greater than the one he gave? That is fine if you personally decide that. But nothing in the Bible allows you or the Governing Body or the papacy or any other entity to create a heavier burden for others, does it?

  It is not loving to do so. However, this particular demonstration of a lack of love probably is the most significant characterization of Jehovah's Witnesses. Most people don't know JWs because of what they believe, they know JWs because of what they reject. Not because of what they do, but because of what they are not allowed to do.

  Galatians is a book I encourage you to read carefully. Galatians 1:6-9 and Galatians 6:1-7 pretty well sums up my last point. They do not demonstrate love (actively demonstrating their love for one another), they try to refrain from demonstrating hate/lack of love (avoiding war). That is not at all the same thing. It is all about the outward show. I never really felt like the congregations I was in loved me. I doubt you believe genuine love for brother and sister is the dominant quality of the organization.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  Sola Scriptura

  Wow!

  Thanks for the warm reception…

  Very good points…

  Please forgive me if I don’t get to address everyone directly with my responses, (You know we JW’s are “busy” hee hee ) But I do read every post.

  First to clarify my original question: When I said Org. I meant all JW’s collectively as a group. Also, I don’t mean to imply that every jw practices Love either. What I mean is: As a collective group, as looked down upon from above, do we at least qualify to be called Christians along with other groups who call themselves Christians?

  To inlove2:
  hello!
  Hang in there with your husband. If he is new, you’re in for a great tribulation in the Flesh. But the good things he learns, IF he puts them into practice, will far out way the negatives of being a JW. There are MANY of us “open minded” JW’s out there…I personally know many of them. (Reg. pubs, pioneers, elders) But we learned to be more cautious after the wake of the Ray Franz Incident. But this has not stopped us from looking deep into the scriptures and using our powers of reason.
  To abbagail: howdy!
  I believe Jesus words on Love are meant to have a broader application then just to the Jews, as you stated earlier. Just because he brought the good news to them first, didn’t mean it wouldn’t apply to his future non-Jewish disciples as well.

  Note what Wikipedia has to say about the Christian use of Love (agape):
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape
  “Christian writers have generally described agape, as expounded on by Jesus, as a form of love which is both unconditional and voluntary; that is, it is non-discriminating with no pre-conditions and is something that one decides to do.”

  Well JW’s certainly got the “voluntary” part right ;) but I believe we have much room for improvement for the “non-discriminating with no pre-conditions” part. But who on this Earth even comes close to this as a group. Even the “anointed” 1st century Christians, including some of the apostles, failed many times in this regard.

  It concerns me that some of you are making sweeping generalizations about JW’s...

  There are over 6,000,000 JW’s in the world…how can one say that they have no Love among themselves based on bad experiences with a fraction of all JW’s.

  This is just as wrong as me saying that JW’s definitely have love among themselves based on my good experiences with a fraction of all JW’s.

  This is like me saying All so called apostates are vengeful and deceitful, based on a few who do fit that profile.

  Though I believe JW’s have many improvements to make in regards to our showing love for one another, I believe and prayerfully hope Jesus considers many of us as his disciples. I believe, as far as religious organizations go, we rank at least in the top 20 percent of Christian believers showing love to one another on a global scale. For ever negative report I hear of jw’s not being loving…I personally know of 2 or more positive reports of jw’s showing love to one another. But guess which one gets advertised more?

  Thanks for listening… I’m eager to hear more opinions on this subject dear to my heart.
  --------------------
  Sola Scriptura

  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"

  -Martin Luther
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  Lady Liberty

  Dear Sola,

  Glad you are open, and I am also glad we have not scared you off. I think the big issue is that Jehovah's Witnesses believe their is only one faith..right? They teach that you must be a baptised Witness in the organization to be approved of by God..right? Well, most of us here don't believe that anymore. It isn't about an organization. It is about each and every individual. Where I live there is a huge church that has over 7,000 members, and that is just in this local area. I work with MANY of them, and they are the nicest, kindest people. They have a huge involvement with the community, and giving to those in need etc. Do I feel they are "the" approved religon by God? No. Do I feel those doing these wonderful works, and drawing others to him are his disciples? You bet I do. Now what about the next religon down the road..are there true Christians showing Christ like love and compassion to others..absolutely!! Is their religion the only true religon?? Of course not? See my point? Personally, I do not believe that there is only one true religon. NO WHERE does it say in the bible Jehovah is using one religon now. However the disciples of Christ Jesus would have love, and that would stand out. Not a organization. I am sure you will disagree with me. And that is ok. But please share with me any scripture that would prove Jehovah is using only one organization, namely the Jehovahs Witnesses.

  Sincerely,

  Lady Liberty
• 

  becca1

  Welcome Sola and inlove2! Sola, I am going to PM you.
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  Sola Scriptura

  Hi Lady Liberty,

  I have a scripture that actually may prove your point(Go figure) it is: Mark 9:38-42

  "John said to him: “Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.” But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; for he that is not against us is for us. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink on the ground that you belong to Christ, I truly tell you, he will by no means lose his reward”.

  The point I personally take from this is, that Jesus is saying for us not to judge ANYONE about his or her status as a believer and follower of Christ.

  Many, but unfortunately not most, of us JW's have a problem with labeling anyone as not worthy of Christ reward who just happens not be a JW. That is strictly up to Jesus to Judge? But as you know 'Religion is a snare and a racket'. Jehovah never intended for man & women to submit to a organized religion to worship him. But Adam changed all of that... Jehovah although has used various organized entities to accomplish his will over the centuries, both religious and governmental. But to say all will die who are not JW's is simply wrong scripturally. I believe the GB has started to realize that lately... in the last 5-10 years they seem to stay away from saying only JW's will survive. But unfortunately that message has not trickled down to the rest of the JW's yet. I hate it when I hear a fellow JW imply or state this; this is heavily ingrained into the JW psyche. But me, and many of my friends, mission is to correct this in a spirit of mildness. It may take years, but I love a challenge.

  Best regards,
  -----------------
  Sola Scriptura
  "A simple layman armed with Scripture is greater than the mightiest pope without it"
  -Martin Luther
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  Sola Scriptura

  LOL
  Sorry Lady Liberty, I just noticed you use that same scripture earlier. I thought for sure I read every post on this thread.

  My sincere apologies.

  Sincerely Sola
  
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  heathen

  That makes a lot of sense! --Trust true clarification of the Christian Greek Scriptures to come from a...

  ...heathen!

  eh , so what are you saying , that you agree the 4 gospel accounts and everything but Pauls writings were exclusively for the jews? Gee I wonder why the entire new testament was written in greek and not hebrew then , makes perfect sense to me ...... I'm a heathen in the sense that I don't practice organized religion , doesn't mean I can't discuss bible related topics .........
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  AuldSoul

  Sola Scriptura,

  I think you are falling into a clever logical fallacy that religions have intentionally woven into mainstream consciousness. Religions cannot be Christian. Only individuals can be Christian. I would enjoy reading your response to that thought.

  To me, it impacts your questions as follows: You said "as an org" do they have love among themselves.

  My answer to you addressed problems you would likely admit need work, but also addressed organizationally mandated lack of love. As an org, they do not. They reject the example of Christ, who immediately sought out the one the Pharisees disfellowshipped (John 9).

  But also, I would not expect an organization to prove itself Christian. An organization is incapable of being Christian, the possibility is only available to individuals. (1 Corinthians 11:1-3; Galatians 1-6) Anyone who teaches otherwise is being Pharisaical.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  heathen

  I can quote a scripture or two that state there is only one true religion that teaches that to practice in any other way would be bad .Titus 3:10 sectarianism is not permitted . Jesus also said not to believe just anybody that claimed they were his disciples .The wolves in sheeps clothing line comes to mind .
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  inlove2

  Dear Sola:

  Thank you for being an open minded Witness. Infact I just challenged my husband to be one (open minded JW) today. I brought him the information on the "Freedom of speech lawsuit in Demark" he was very suspicious about where I got my information from and its motives. He said "He wanted to ask the Elders what they knew about it". Who wants to take a guess on the answer he will get from the Elders.

  We also talked about why he believes that JW's are only true practicing Christians today. He reference "Reasoning from the Scripture book" and said it explained why only JW's were ture Christain today and God's organization. According to Reasoning Book:

  Not a true religion if they teach Trinity or immortallity...........Not true religion if they do not use the Name "Jehovah".....not a true religion if do not practice faith that is accompanied by works.........Not a true religion if they do not sincerely endeavor to apply bible standards in their lives........if they support wars.........if they are involved in politics......... if they are not going house to house to preach the good news.

  So, I don't understand why you would be asking, if JW's qualify as Christ disciples, according to "The reasoning from the Scriptures", JW's would be the only ones to qualify as Christ disciples. Because as far as I know they are the only religious organization who say they follow all these requirments?

  Sincerely, Inlove2