Christians are masochists

by onacruse 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  onacruse

  Picking up on a couple of thoughts:

  narkissos:

  suffering/death is "enjoyed" not in itself but as the other face of joy/life etc.

  RAF:

  you forget about the suffering part because it leads to something good

  That's exactly what masochism is! In fact, the primary definition involves the derivation of sexual pleasure from physical pain.

  It's the "translation" of pain into pleasure, for whatever reason, that strikes me (now, though for a long time it didn't) as being abnormal. The Scriptures are replete with similar examples, and the WTS literature is permeated with the same, especially during the War years and after periods of major apostasy. In not so many words, it's a matter of "If you aren't suffering, you're not a Christian."
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  RAF

  Onacruse,

  That's exactly what masochism is! In fact, the primary definition involves the derivation of sexual pleasure from physical pain.

  Yes but it depends on the why (the purpose = where it leads) I mean it's not suffering for the sake of suffering

  It's the "translation" of pain into pleasure, for whatever reason, that strikes me (now, though for a long time it didn't) as being abnormal. The Scriptures are replete with similar examples, and the WTS literature is permeated with the same, especially during the War years and after periods of major apostasy. In not so many words, it's a matter of "If you aren't suffering, you're not a Christian."

  to me there is an missunderstanding here about that : it means more something like that : You know that if you are good you will have against you a lot of bad once and as being good you will have to deal with them or the situation as good/nicely as possible (it's frustating and either physical or moral or both it can be very painfull).
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  onacruse

  RAF, with all due respect, it seems to me that you're dancing around here. For example:

  Yes but it depends on the why (the purpose = where it leads)

  Masochism is not a matter of why.

  I mean it's not suffering for the sake of suffering

  Again, masochism is not a matter of suffering for the sake of suffering.

  If I may ask a blunt question: Would a true Christian have a problem with simply, and even gladly, saying "Yes, I'm a masochist"?
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  avengers

  Rejoice and be glad [when people insult you

  Let me see. Who can I make rejoice and glad today?

  Andy
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  RAF

  Ok Onacruse
  
  ... We have a probleme here I don't understand your question or you don't understand my answers.

  So I'm going to try to be more clear about how I feel about the subject in taking an example out of religious matter :

  If my son is runing in the street and he is going to be crashed by a bus ... if I run to push him farest in taking the risk to be crashed myself am I masochiste? NO ... why? because I don't want to suffer the probleme is that (as my son means a lot to me) I'm being optimist in thinking that, that way we may both get out of trouble by me doing that or I'd rather have him saved instead of me.

  I don't know if this is an example which explain clearly my point view on the matter ... maybe someone can find a better way to explain this?
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  Sad emo

  onacruse:

  you forget about the suffering part because it leads to something good

  That's exactly what masochism is!

  So if you go to have a tooth pulled, you're a masochist? If that's the case everyone on the planet is one! Or am I missing something here?

  I think what RAF was saying in 'Franglais' (forgive me if I'm wrong RAF!) is not literally forgetting or ignoring the pain but that you know that the end result is going to far outweigh any present, unavoidable suffering.

  As I mentioned in my post - like having to have a tooth pulled ...
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  onacruse

  RAF, please excuse me if I'm not understanding what you're saying, but in response to your last post: Self-sacrifice for the benefit of others is not masochism. And that you don't want to suffer (because of harm to your son, in this case), would mean that any actions you took to protect him (and you) from suffering are exactly contrary to what masochism means.
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  onacruse

  Sad emo, hello!

  So if you go to have a tooth pulled, you're a masochist? If that's the case everyone on the planet is one! Or am I missing something here?

  To answer that, I'd have to ask: In getting the tooth pulled, would you ask the dentist to not use anesthesia, simply so that you could suffer the pain, which you "know" (or, let's say, hope) would lead to a happier mouth? Or would you ask the dentist to do everything possible to minimize the pain?
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  RAF

  Thanks SadEmo for explaining in a better way ...

  Onacruse, you know the langage barrier is SO frustrating, sometimes I feel like I'm talking in the wind / or that what I'm saying is totally missunderstood. For me it takes a lot of effort to try to explain what I think. I guess I should learn English ... (but I do with all of you ... I don't like any schoolish method ... it's boring)

  I'm so happy when somebody who sees the things the way I do is telling it in a better way ...
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  LittleToe

  There's a duality in life bringing about a tension between pain and joy, life and death. Christianity just explains this at a mystical level, as well as the physical level. Its no more masochistic than childbirth (analogy chosen with extreme intent). Anyone who has experienced a dark night of the soul will attest to this.

  Just my 2p as a Christian Mystic

  Corinne:You do exceedingly well! Your English is a thousand times better than my French! Keep it up