Jesus Christ, Michael the Archangel does it really matter?

by unbaptized 57 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • stark
    stark

    "Jesus Christ, Michael the Archangel does it really matter?

    Because at the end of the day he's still our Lord and Saviour. He died on a stake for our sins. He is the image of the Almighty God. So what I want to know is does it matter if he was an angel or not? Tell me what you think?"

    Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, seemed to think it was important. This is from

    2 Corinthians 11:4 "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."

    If Paul warns about a different Jesus, then in the end some would have a different Jesus, a Jesus that did not die for their sins.

    As for Jesus being God... unless God, speaking in Isaiah 43:10, is dreadfully wrong, there is not a mighty god (Jesus) and an almighty God (the Father). The verse says: "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

    And if Jesus is a created being John 1:3 is in trouble, it says: "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

    If that verse is true, then everything that had a point of creation was created by Jesus, and since it's illogical for Jesus to have created himself, he has to be an eternal being. Which is good because he's called the Word of God and the Wisdom of God, and since there was never a time when God didn't have His Word, or his Wisdom, that fits nicely.

    Jesus is God in human flesh.

  • unbaptized
    unbaptized

    Hello Stark,

    First of all I want you to do some research on that scripture. The name of God was taken out of the Bible and replaced with the word Lord. So the original hebrew should have stated (YHWH or Jehovah or Yahweh) in the place of Lord. That's why it's hard for some to distinguish between Almighty God and Jesus our Lord and Saviour. Jesus is God's chosen one. The one mentioned in the verse you just quoted from Isaiah 43.

    Second, Jesus was the firstborn of all creation by God and through Jesus all other things were created. 1 Col 1:13-20

    It is not belittling Jesus to be a creation and not the Almighty God, that's why is called the son of God. He is the image of the invisible God.

    So Michael, Jesus is the High Priest and Anointed King of Almighty God. Amen

  • unbaptized
    unbaptized

    Stark!

    How can Jesus be Almighty God in the flesh. Now you are belittling Almighty God.

    The Eternal Father, King of Eternity could never assume a slaves form such as ours. Our weak fleshly bodies could not contain his power and majesty. He even stated to Moses no man can look upon him and live, so how could he get into a man's form and people continue to look at him.

    Also Almighty God told Solomon that the Heavens is his throne and the earth is his footstool. How can a body made from dust contain such power and majesty?

    You belittle the Almighty God with your talk, saying he became a mere man as Adam in the flesh. But it's only due to lack of understanding.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I remember teaching that claptrap as a JW Elder.

    Try reading something other than just Watchtowers. You'll be surprised how many opinions there are out there, and far more convincing than those of the WTS...

  • unbaptized
    unbaptized

    LittleToe

    I read other material as well, But my information is from the Bible itself

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    So is mine...

    We have a difference in interpretation. The most significant difference being that most of the WTS stuff came from Russell and Franz. Most of the Christian stuff has come from a multitude of highly educated men over a period of 2000 years, with a reasonable amount of agreement (especially concerning whether or not Jesus was a created angel, which the opening couple of chapters of Hebrews appears to knock flat).

    Meanwhile I see no evidence of you having any opinion other that the swill served up from the WTS. If you genuinely do read outside of the WTS then you must be reading it with the perspective that you will only find error, instead of comparing and critically appraising all that you read (WTS and nonWTS).

    If its any consolation, I used to do exactly the same thing, too...

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Personally I feel He "Lived" and taught for us. That He died is rather inconsequential, and whether or not it was a stake, cross, or by musket can't mean a hill of beans. His "sacrafice" was not dieing, but the abuse He endured for the teachings He brought. carmel

  • zack
    zack

    Just my thoughts, and I am not one that personally subscribes to all this, but many Christians do see Christ the Son as God. I am not sure whether they actually

    recognize him to be a person seperate from God the Father. Christ is God, the Eternal Father of the Isaiah ch. 9, the one through, by, and for whom all things were created.

    He is the AGENCY by which the Creator made all other things. We are the WORK of his hands, according to scripture.

    So, while some may differ in interpretation, I do not think it unreasonable for some to consider Christ as God in the flesh, in as much as he WAS God and was made a man

    that his sacrifice might atone for the sins of mankind, the mankind THAT HE MADE. To simply say that Christ is the archangel Michael, or any other archangel or angel

    or likened to any other spirit creature betrays a lack of appreciation for and understanding about Jesus Christ. Remember, God Almighty, Thee Creator, the INFINITE being,

    willed for Christ to occupy the place at the apex of all things. Man did not will this or invent this. To take away from Christ his special and rightful place, given to Him by His God, is to

    deny the will of God the Father. This is what the WTS has done. They are ANTI Jesus Christ.

  • stark
    stark

    Hi unbaptized thanks for the response, I'd like to take a look at your posts, first you said:

    "First of all I want you to do some research on that scripture. The name of God was taken out of the Bible and replaced with the word Lord. So the original hebrew should have stated (YHWH or Jehovah or Yahweh) in the place of Lord. That's why it's hard for some to distinguish between Almighty God and Jesus our Lord and Saviour. Jesus is God's chosen one. The one mentioned in the verse you just quoted from Isaiah 43."

    Okay, let me start by pointing out that the "Lord" you spoke of in Isaiah 43 is not Lord, but "LORD", and we have no idea what God's name sounds like. Jehovah is a Catholic name, given to save time.

    Next I've got a question for you, I understand that the Watch Tower Organization replaced Lord for Jehovah in the New Testament. Would you mind telling me what criteria had to be met for Lord to become Jehovah?

    Next up is where you said:

    "Second, Jesus was the firstborn of all creation by God and through Jesus all other things were created. 1 Col 1:13-20"

    If the word "firstborn" means, in this case, that Jesus is the first created, it causes a great problem with John 1:3 which says, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

    But now I have a problem, what do I do with firstborn? My problem is solved in the Old Testament starting in Genesis 48:10-14, to save space I won't quote it, but in this passage we find that Israel blesses Ephraim as the firstborn when Manasseh war really the one born first. Look at Jeremiah 31:9 you see it confirmed that Ephraim is the "firstborn". Not because he was born first, but because he was in a higher position. Look at King David he was the last born of Jesse yet in Psalm 89:27 God says "I also shall make him My first-born the highest of the kings of the earth."

    In Colossians 1:15 "firstborn" means first in rank, pre-eminent one. That was Paul's intention when he wrote the word "prototokos", if he had intended first one created he would have written, "protoktisis" which means first created.

    You mentioned that "through" Jesus all "other" things were created. Just a reminder that the word "other" is not in the text, and by adding other it doesn't clarify the text, it changes the text. Now I understand that the Watch Tower teaching is that God used Jesus, or rather Michael as a tool to create everything and one of the reasons they teach that is because of the word "through." Why does the Watchtower insist that through can only mean, be means of, like a tool. If that is the only way "through" can be used there is a problem with Romans 11:35- 36 which says: "Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

    See how that word causes a problem? If it can only mean "by means of" the question would be who used God? When John 1:3 says "through him" concerning Jesus it means "as a result of, or because of" John 1:3 could very well say "Because of him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." The same would fit for Colossians 1:16.

    Next you said:

    "It is not belittling Jesus to be a creation and not the Almighty God, that's why is called the son of God. He is the image of the invisible God."

    If Jesus is God incarnate, it would be belittling, and you would have the wrong Jesus.

    "So Michael, Jesus is the High Priest and Anointed King of Almighty God. Amen"

    That's the teaching of the Watchtower Organization not the Bible.

    I'll continue in another post.

  • stark
    stark

    Now on to your next post where you said:

    "How can Jesus be Almighty God in the flesh. Now you are belittling Almighty God. The Eternal Father, King of Eternity could never assume a slaves form such as ours. Our weak fleshly bodies could not contain his power and majesty. He even stated to Moses no man can look upon him and live, so how could he get into a man's form and people continue to look at him.Also Almighty God told Solomon that the Heavens is his throne and the earth is his footstool. How can a body made from dust contain such power and majesty?You belittle the Almighty God with your talk, saying he became a mere man as Adam in the flesh. But it's only due to lack of understanding."

    Look at the words you used: "The Eternal Father, King of Eternity could never..."

    I call this a Matthew 22:29 problem it says: "Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God."

    You have to be very careful when you say "God could never." He is all powerful, and we are in danger when we put our limitations on Him.

    By the way do you consider Jesus a true god or a false god?

    I look forward to your reply.

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