Mad:
Look at what the churches teach today...
Little Toe: And would that be the one phrase that utterly destroys the theory of creation and proves evolution?
Mad: Imagination....
Is Atheism/Evolutionism Dangerous? Questions for Unbelievers
by Perry 156 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Mad
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Deputy Dog
LT How do you square up what you said to derek
Derek:LOL - while some would undoubtedly use your version of the definition (e.g. Hyper Calvinists ), most wouldn't take such an extreme view of the meaning. In laymans terms it decribes mankind being prone to error, or "imperfect" as the WTS would have had it.
with these words from Calvin
We come now to the reprobate, to whom the Apostle at the same time refers (Rom_9:13). For as Jacob, who as yet had merited nothing by good works, is assumed into favor; so Esau, while as yet unpolluted by any crime, is hated. If we turn our view to works, we do injustice to the Apostle, as if he had failed to see the very thing which is clear to us. Moreover, there is complete proof of his not having seen it, since he expressly insists that when as yet they had done neither good nor evil, the one was elected, the other rejected, in order to prove that the foundation of divine predestination is not in works. Then after starting the objection, Is God unjust? instead of employing what would have been the surest and plainest defense of his justice, viz., that God had recompensed Esau according to his wickedness, he is contented with a different solution, viz., that the reprobate are expressly raised up, in order that the glory of God may thereby be displayed. At last, he concludes that God has mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth (Rom_9:18 ). You see how he refers both to the mere pleasure of God. Therefore, if we cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just that it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will. When God is said to visit in mercy or harden whom he will, men are reminded that they are not to seek for any cause beyond his will.
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Deputy Dog
derek
It's bad enough that some believe they have to obey the sky-daddy in order for him to "save" them from the punishment that he would otherwise inflict on them. It strikes me as vastly more absurd that he would do this merely because people believe in him.
I see even faith as a gift from God.
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kid-A
From the gospel of Saint Perry:
"They would be forced to conclude:
(1) The human species cannot know of their own what is good and bad."
> You dont even know how to DEFINE good and bad. If you understood the evolution of human social psychology, you would realize that each individual human culture defines for its own particular utility and environmental pressures what "behavioural" actions shall be deemed "good" or "bad". In and of themselves, these are meaningless words...
"(2) Even when they do "know", they cannot do it and thus avoid the hypocrisy of meteing out punishment to others guilty of the same moral lapses. "
> More evidence of your black and white mindset. What is good is entirely CONTEXT DEPENDENT, as is "bad"....Again, you dont even have a definition of "good" OR "bad" so the statement is rather meaningless, isnt it?
"(3) Freedom is relative, and we will always need a source for moral knowledge."
> So what? This is completely irrelevant to the self-referential state of "atheism" or "christian" or "muslim" or whatever label you care to adopt. Freedom is relative...yes....and so is MORALITY. Case in point, I am certain your belief that I will burn in hell for eternity is a perfectly "moral" retribution that your cute little sky-god will mete out to me and my fellow evil atheists? LOL!!! In ANY case, ones "source" of "moral knowledge" comes from the combination of our human genome and our environmental and cultural surroundings. Humans have EVOLVED as social creatures, and our natural propensity for utilitarian actions is genetically determined, having NOTHING to do with belief in some silly ancient text written thousands of years ago.
(4) The sources that we erect are highly subject to manipulation.
> Yup! Glad you admitted this Saint Perry, its not easy for someone with a messiah complex such as yourself! LOL...However, you are 100% correct. THE GOD YOU HAVE ERECTED is completely subject to MANIPULATION for the simple reason that you can use his anthropomorphic, self-righteous arrogance to JUSTIFY your own judgemental moralizing of everyone who rejects your tiny little sky-god and his little messengers....
"(5) We will always be in servitude to the source we choose. "
> Hmmmm, in servitude to my own evolutionary history? Yup, probably true, and so what? Its called being a human being and accepting the constraints of ones own biological limits. Again, this has no relationship at all to whether one is atheist (and accepts a biological explanation for morality) or a believer (who needs to go running to his imaginary daddy in the sky everytime he needs some moral direction!)
"(6) We need Someone with enough authority to pronounce "absolvo" on our behalf and releive us of our guilt."
Sorry Perry, it just aint that simple. First, if someone commits a heinous act, those feelings of guilt are serving a very useful function....they are the psychological constructs built into the human brain that attempt to PREVENT us from doing these acts AGAIN. Do you think getting some imaginary "absolution" is really going to benefit the perpetrator? I doubt it. And thats why we have a penal and legal system in our society. To prevent and protect individuals from those amongst us that WOULD do us harm. The concept of "absolvo" is just psychological anesthesia that benefits the perpetrator, NOT the victim, which, IMHO, makes it an inherently immoral and unethical concept.
"(7) Even if we are pronounced "not guilty" we need an instrument that can bridge the utilitarian gap between what we choose as good and what we do."
Yes, obviously. Again, what possible relevance could this have to the issue of atheism/evolution? As I have stated ad infinitum, we have EVOLVED as inherently social beings for the simple reason that humans survive much more efficiently and therefore re-produce and pass on their DNA much more effectively when we belong and are protected by a social group. Virtually ALL primate species and most vertebrate species display the exact same social bonding as humans and intimately depend upon one another for survival and protection. Its really not complicated: scratch my back and I'll scratch yours pretty much sums up the whole evolution of morality but if you want more information, I suggest you seriously study "game theory" in the context of evolutionary "morality".....
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LittleToe
DDog:
There's a marked difference between depravity and reprobation, but that really isn't the subject of this thread. I only introduced my comments because some were getting strung out by being called "depraved", thinking it a personal slight. -
Deputy Dog
LT
Feel free to use your thread to answer my question! I think derek could be right. Maybe for the wrong reason?
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Wafe
The problem is not God but pride that is attached to people's beliefs.
This is one of those "I'm right and you're wrong" deals were everyone has an opinion and no one thinks that they are wrong. Personally I was agnositic but found that it simply did not solve the problems in life so I choose to embrace the Bible. That was my choice and it is one that I do not regret personally. If a person chooses to believe in something else that is their own affiar. But to say that religious people are the cause of all the problems today not only shows a lack of the facts but also intelliengence.
I will Give you an example below of how anything can be considered dangerous if taken out of context
Atom bomb-Created by science and technology.
Polution Created by science and technology by making cars that pollute
Violence formed from watching many violent television shows -Created by science and technology
Bible teaches to love your neighbor evolution teaches to love the strongest.
War vehicles Created by Science and technology. Who used them? Secular nations.
Global warming Created by Science and technology
Starvation-caused by greed of secular politicians ran by big business. Christians are told to feed the poor.
I could go on but the point is clear.... You may want to rethink your position about religion.