No prayer for disfellowshipped ones

by LexWatson 21 Replies latest jw friends

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  Lady Liberty

  Dear Lex,

  WELCOME!! Like so many other things I have found since leaving the organization, it is wise to follow the scriptures rather then some man made set of rules that have been claimed to be from God. Like was mentioned from another poster, Jesus said we are to pray for our enemies. See Matthew 5:43-44:

  43

  "YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU;

  I don't know what the current thinking is on it from the Borg, but here is what they used to say:

  Watchtower 1979 Oct. 1 Question from the readers:

  Questions

  fromReaders

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  WoulditeverbeinordertoprayregardingsomeonewhohasbeendisfellowshipedfromtheChristiancongregation?

  In the past it has been held that such prayers would not be proper. And there are good Scriptural reasons for restraint. But relevant Bible counsel recommends considering the individual situation rather than taking a categorical position.

  Particularly does 1 John 5:16, 17 help us to get God’s view. There it is stated: "If any one sees his brother committing a sin that is not deadly, he must ask and God will give him life for those who are committing sin that is not deadly. There is sin that is deadly. I do not say that he should pray in behalf of that. All unrighteousness is sin, and [yet] there is sin that is not deadly."—TheRiversideNewTestament.

  The apostle John first mentions "sin that is not deadly," or, as the NewWorldTranslation renders it, "sin that does not incur death." Since all of us are imperfect and unrighteous, we are all guilty of sin. (Ps. 51:5; Rom. 3:23; 1 John 3:4) One who sins needs to repent and pray for God’s abundant mercy. (1 John 1:8-10) As John shows, others also can pray for him.

  Next, John refers to ‘deadly sin,’ or "sin that does incur death." What is that? It is sin for which one cannot be forgiven; it is "deadly" for it leads to the "second death," or eternal death. (Rev. 21:8) Earlier, Jesus explained that a person could carry sin to the point of sinning against the holy spirit, for which there is no forgiveness. (Matt. 12:31; Luke 12:10) Similarly, the apostle Paul showed that if one who knew God’s truth practiced sin willfully, repentance and forgiveness would no longer be possible.—Heb. 6:4-6; 10:26, 27.

  John tells us not to pray for one who committed such "deadly" sin. This brings to mind God’s words concerning the Israelites who were so given to wickedness that He was going to let the Babylonians take them into captivity. God told Jeremiah: "Do not pray in behalf of this people, neither raise in their behalf an entreating cry or a prayer nor beseech me."—Jer. 7:16-20; 14:11, 12.

  God, not we on earth, determines if someone has sinned against the holy spirit. Yet, we can appreciate from John’s inspired words that we should not pray in behalf of a person who gives evidence of practicing sin deliberately. John also wrote in 2 John 9-11 about persons who spread unchristian views. Prayers in their behalf would be offensive to God.

  Should we conclude, then, that a person who is disfellowshiped because of unrepentant sin likely has committed a "sin that does incur death," about which we should not pray? Not necessarily. Recall that in the first-century Corinthian congregation a man fell into immorality. For a while he was unrepentant and so had to be disfellowshiped. (1 Cor. 5:1, 9-13) It seems, however, that in time he repented and was reinstated. (2 Cor. 2:5-10) That would indicate that, even though he had been disfellowshiped, he had not committed the sin that incurs death, about which Christians are not to pray. The same can be true today.

  When a person is disfellowshiped, it may not then be clear whether the sin will ‘incur death’ or not. But in time evidence of repentance and turning around may begin to appear. (Compare Acts 2:36-38; 3:19.) That might first be observed by someone close, such as a husband’s detecting it in his disfellowshiped wife’s attitude and conduct. So he may conclude that it seems she has not committed ‘deadly sin’ and he may be moved to pray for her. He might pray that if Jehovah—who reads hearts—finds a basis for pardoning her error, may God’s will be done. Also, he might express to God his hope that she draw strength from the Bible so as to overcome her weakness.

  While someone personally may feel that he can approach God regarding a disfellowshiped person, it would not be fitting to do so in public or congregational prayers. It should be appreciated that others hearing such prayers may not yet know of the evidence indicating repentance. Or they may not yet be convinced that the person has not committed a "sin that does incur death."

  Consequently, in instances where a Christian believes it is proper to pray regarding a disfellowshiped person, he should do so in private prayers only. And all of us can strive to guide our thinking in this connection by the inspired counsel of Jehovah’s Word.

  Insight book under prayer:

  Nor can one rightly pray for those whom God condemns.—Jer 7:16; 11:14.

  Sincerely,

  Lady Liberty
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  JamieL

  Even while I've been DFd I saw it discussed on the bookstudy that anyone person you see on the street could certainly be in the new system and you might not expect it, but a person you expect to be there (a fellow JW) might not be.

  Here's a classic example of why many of us consider Jehovah's Witnesses to be a mind-control cult. What really is the message here? Isn't the message that you have no reason to sincerely feel safe in the organization? Anyone could be the next to fall. It could happen to the brother who was in for sixty years, saving people every day, doing everything he could to say thank you to Jehovah, and he could be gone in an instant. What does that say about Jehovah's loyalty?

  The messages that the Jehovah's Witness organization sends out is to keep people uneasy. Uneasy people don't look at themselves in detail and make positive changes. They just try to limit the amount of uneasiness or distract themselves in other ways. This message, and many other common messages among what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach slyly make God out to be some kind of insecure and vengeful monster. These messages don't honor God or draw people to him at all.

  What? You are making NO sense.

  Who knows what God thinks or does not think about people. I gaurentee you there are plenty of selfish people in the world that don't deserve his grace or Jesus, though they give it freely it does require faith and a faith that is reflected by how you live your life. Works are not required, but obviously by how people live their lives you might be able to conclude a lot about their faith.

  Jehovah is loyal to the heart condition of everyone. But even God has limits to being tested, which is reflected again and again in the Bible. You can't just be a punk that claims to have faith and then lead your life like you don't give a crap about anything but yourself.

  What message was "I" sending. I wasn't sending that one, you are reading TOO much into something and making an argument where there isn't one. How is that at all constructive or in any way bring any honor to anything?

  I was simply saying "who can know what Jehovah will do, he alone KNOWS peoples hearts" and if people have bad hearts he cannot force them to have good ones. You really think having read the Bible thru that Jehovah likes being disrespected by those who have no respect for his creations?

  Forget about being a JW or not at this point, I'm just talking common sense here. There are plenty of bad people in the world and they don't care about what they do or who they hurt. In general people do have respect for life, but invariably when push comes to shove they are more than likely to choose themselves over anything else they say they have faith in. Are they bad? I don't know, who knows. But as human beings we are "inclined" to baser instincts. That's reflected in a world that could be better but is not because human beings choose themselves before others. Can you honestly look around and say, "it's all good" "everyone is happy" "everyone is good"

  To me your response leads to the common excuse for people to behave however they want with no regard for consequences. It actually leads to the path of believing you can do whatever you wish and be forgiven, and frankly the second anyone has that though. "I can do this and be forgiven later" they have already cut themselves off from Gods Grace because they've insulted him right to his face. So many people are simply making excuses for any kind of behavior, and frankly are downright lazy about their approach to any sort of personal responsibility.

  I hold myself to it everyday. Make mistakes, and frankly some of them I don't think I should be forgiven for yet because I did them knowing my own principles, and gods principles and I simply did not care. I'm not saying "I can't be" but right now I shouldn't be. Most people aren't that honest with themselves about making a mistake and think making mistakes is just normal growing, there's a big difference between making a mistake that you did not intend to and intentionally making one. A lot of people let themselves off the hook, and I don't let myself off the hook.

  Lastly, this has a lot to do with how I am, not from being a JW. Regardless of whether or not I am ever a JW again.