QFR: "Never has a woman given Jehovah perfect obedience"

by Inquisitor 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • blondie
    blondie

    Previous attempts to answer this question:

    *** w53 1/15 p. 63 Questions From Readers ***

    What does Solomon mean when he says he found a true man in a thousand, but never a true woman?—J. K., New Hampshire.

    Ecclesiastes 7:27-29 states (AT): "‘See, this is what I have found,’ says Koheleth, ‘adding one to one to find the total, which I have sought repeatedly, but not found; one man out of a thousand have I found, but not a woman have I found among all these. Only see this which I have found, that God made mankind upright, but they have sought out many contrivances.’" Moffatt renders verse 28 as follows: "Here is what I have found, says the Speaker: one true man in a thousand, but never a true woman!"

    This can hardly be taken to mean that men are better than women. It cannot be taken literally to mean that there are no true women, for the Bible speaks of faithful women, and there are more women who are Jehovah’s witnesses today than there are men.Solomoncould have been speaking from his personal experience, for he had a thousand wives and concubines all told. There may not have been a single one of these that was devoted to Jehovah God, though he doubtless did know some men who were faithful to God. So he may have had his own unhappy domestic situation in mind when he wrote as he did.

    However, there is another possible meaning that seems more sound. One thousand is a multiple of ten, which represents earthly completeness. So the thousand may referto all the women ever to live on the earth, not one of which was or is a perfect woman. Eve did not remain such, in fact never did pass the test that would have shown her perfect in integrity to God. The virgin mother of Jesus, Mary, was not perfect. As for men, the thousand there would also represent earthly completeness and embrace all the men that ever lived upon the earth. The situation of men is different from that of women. Whereas there has never been a perfect woman that held faultless obedience to Jehovah God, there has been one such man, namely Christ Jesus. He is the one true, perfect man, and the only one that ever lived on the earth. So it is very likely that this great truth is embraced by the words of Solomon at Ecclesiastes 7:27-29. The conclusion announced in verse 29 is a sweeping summation that embraces all mankind, man as a race rather than men as contrasted with women, and thus it supports the view last presented rather than the first possibility that Solomon’s words might bereferring to his own personal experience.

    ** w77 8/15 pp. 495-496 What Did the Wise Man Mean? ***

    The State of Humankind

    Recognizing the grandeur and complexity of God’s work, Solomon again directs his attention to human affairs. He writes: "I myself turned around, even my heart did, to know and to explore and to search for wisdom and the reason of things, and to know about the wickedness of stupidity and the foolishness of madness; and I was finding out: More bitter than death I found the woman who is herself nets for hunting and whose heart is dragnets and whose hands are fetters. One is good before the true God if one escapes from her, but one is sinning if one is captured by her."—Eccl. 7:25, 26.

    Note that careful, whole-hearted investigation led Solomon to single out a bad woman, a prostitute, as one of the worst things with which a man can get involved. He compares her allurements to "dragnets" and "fetters." The man who is ensnared by such a woman may go through an experience more bitter than death, perhaps contracting a loathsome venereal disease or bringing ruin to his family if he is married. More importantly, yielding to a prostitute can jeopardize one’s relationship with Jehovah God.

    Solomon’s making such a strong point about the allurements of a bad woman suggests that a very low standard among women may have prevailed at that time. This may have been because of foreign influence and a leaning toward Baal worship, a fertility cult that Solomon later sponsored in an attempt to please his foreign wives. (1 Ki. 11:3-8) This background may shed light on what Solomon next wrote: "See! This I have found, . . . one thing taken after another, to find out the sumup, which my soul has continuously sought, but I have not found. One man out of a thousand I have found, but a woman among all these I have not found."—Eccl. 7:27, 28.

    Solomon came to realize that an upright man was hard to find. There might be one out of a thousand. Yet, based on his own experience with numerous wives and concubines and his observations of other women, Solomon concluded that the ideal in women was even rarer at that time. This does not mean that there were no fine women but that, as a whole, exemplary ones were few. Blessed indeed was the man who had found a good wife. The book of Proverbs fittingly says: "A capable wife who can find? Her value is far more than that of corals." (Prov. 31:10) "Has one found a good wife? One has found a good thing."—Prov. 18:22.

    The fact that upright men and women were hard to find cannot, however, be charged to God. Solomon acknowledged: "The true God made mankind upright, but they themselves have sought out many plans." (Eccl. 7:29) Instead of abiding by God’s righteous standards, for the most part men and women have chosen willfully to follow their own plans, schemes, devices or ways, to their injury.

    *** w87 9/15 p. 25 "Fear the True God and Keep His Commandments" ***

    7:28—Are these words downgrading womankind?

    It appearsthat the prevailing moral standard was very low. Thus, Solomon was speaking about the rarity of righteous men or women atthetime. Among a thousand people, it was hard to find one righteous man, and it was even harder to find one righteous woman. The Bible, however, speaks about the "excellent woman" and the "capable wife." (Ruth 3:11; Proverbs 31:10) This verse may also be prophetic, for never has a woman given Jehovah perfect obedience, whereas there has been such a man—Jesus Christ.

  • Frannie Banannie
    Frannie Banannie

    I suppose this means that Jesus was born from a sinful, disobedient woman.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Never has a woman given Jehovah perfect obedience. But there has been one such man - Jesus Christ. -- Romans 5:15-17

    Not only is this incredibly insulting, but the statement is wholly irrelevant to the question. In v. 28, the word for "man" is 'dm which is the term for "human being", not "male person" (cf. Genesis 1:27, in which 'dm includes both zkr "male" and nqbh "female"). The "one man out of a thousand" is thus not necessarily a male person, but only a single person out of a thousand. This is not a single thousand either. The second part of the verse refers to kl-'lh "all of these [people]" who are upright, i.e. all the people who are upright out of all the thousands of people Qoheleth has observed. This of course mitigates against the christological reading given above, which depends on the argument that only Jesus Christ was "upright" in the sense of Ecclesiastes 7:28-29 (e.g. if only Jesus was upright in this sense, and since he was a male person, no female person could have been upright in the same sense). Instead, we have a group of people who are upright. Rather, the point of the verse is that of all these people, not one of them is a woman: "One person ('chd 'dm) among a thousand have I found [upright], but I have not found a woman ('shh) among all of these (bkl-'lh)." By translating 'dm as "man," the NWT has obscured the sense of the text. And while it is true that "one person out of a thousand" testifies more to Qoheleth's perception of the general moral condition of the people, at the same time the verse does comment on more than the general moral condition... it does set women apart as devoid of moral character. This of course follows from the statement in v. 26 which bitterly laments women whose hearts are "traps" and whose hands are "chains". It would be interesting to see if this QFR omits v. 26 from the discussion.

    A similar misogynist perspective is expressed in Sirach 25:13-24, e.g. "No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman, may a sinner's lot be hers... Sin began with a woman, and thanks to her we all must die". This is not surprising since both Qoheleth and ben Sira were similar writers of the wisdom genre who also had similar religious (e.g. Zadokite, proto-Sadducee) backgrounds.

  • Gretchen956
    Gretchen956
    In the Catholic Tradition, Mary, the Blessed Mother of Jesus, is believed to have been conceived without original sin. She is the greatest of all the Saints and a model for all believers to follow.

    Except for one little item you forgot. They can't become priests. Hmmm wonder why if they have Mary as such a shining example? After all it was the Catholics that took the lead in the "witch" burnings in prior centuries. I hardly think they are any more of a good example.

    Just my opinion.

    The JW religion is now and has always been an old boys club. Only thing that changes is that the old boys get older and older.

    Sherry

  • minimus
    minimus

    Yeah. No woman is any good, just like the Bible says.

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    Well Girlz, it's time to see that gender-changing doctor if you ever want to be in Jerhover's favor.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    w 3/1/20 page 77

    Although the Lord has been pleased usually to select men in connection with his work, not only as typical characters but also as evangels of the gospel, nevertheless the Scriptures give as pictures of noble women who, because of the delinquency of men, have been almost forced into public service by God's providence.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    A few gems from Ben Sirach:

    Any wound, but not a wound of the heart!
    Any wickedness, but not the wickedness of a woman!
    -- 25.13.

    Any iniquity is small compared to a woman's iniquity;
    may a sinner's lot befall her! --
    25.19

    From a woman sin had its beginning,
    and because of her we all die.
    25:24.

    And, last but not least:

    Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good;
    it is woman who brings shame and disgrace.
    42:14.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    I remember that the religous Jews (pharasees?), kept themselves away from the defiling that may occur with women getting too close, they always kept thier disatance, and would not be caught dead talking to one in public.

  • Soledad
    Soledad

    for never has a woman given Jehovah perfect obedience. But there has been one such man - Jesus Christ. what about his mother? I mean, God did impregnate her, and she didn't utter a single word in protest about it, right? this is where you see that not only is organized religion biased agaisnt women but so are the so-called inspired authors of the bible. clearly man's word, not God's.

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