Is my understanding correct?

by Doug Mason 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I thought to myself maybe its because Jesus meant it to apply in the 1st century and only then.
  There is no second and major fullfillment of it. Ive not settled on that thought though as im still reasoning
  evrything out and it might take some time!

  Please come to your own conclusions, I'm just a country doctor Jim.

  What you post here is my best understanding, but read the warnings
  in the Gospels, right there with the sign. Jesus said "Do not be misled."
  "The end is not yet." Do your research. Google it, ask others here.

  If there were a future fulfillment, the same warning would apply.
  Also, there are no more 20th century earthquakes than other centuries.
  There was pestilence and famine for everyone in the dark ages.
  World war (not what Jesus said) could also be considered the
  French and American Revolutions, and other wars.
• 

  beginnersmind

  I understand theres an argument that theres been no increase from the 20th century onwards regarding wars, famines & earthquakes which i can believe. I wasnt debating that point. I have read these accounts numerous times and they all say the same thing to me. Jesus when saying 'the end is not yet' was meaning there would be a time when there would be wars and rumours of wars but the end was not yet for the destruction of Jerusalem and not to be scared about those reports beause there would be other signs which would warn them. The 'do not be misled' comment was about ones saying 'i am he' and saying 'the due time had approached' and not to follow them. History shows these things happened before Jerusalem was destroyed ie wars, earthquakes & famines. So how can 'do not be misled' refer to them when they happened and then later Jerusalem was destroyed? I cannot see the direct link between 'do not be misled', Jesus words on wars, famines & earthquakes & 'the end is not yet'. You could say ones should not mislead themselves into thinking the end was coming just yet for Jerusalem when they heared these wars and reports of wars but thats just linking the word 'misled'.

  If someone said to me they believed this prophecy has a major fullfillment today but at this moment in time we are in the Matt 24:4-6, Luke 21:8-10 stage ie only up to these ones who 'mislead' and the 'wars and reports of wars' and no further then i could accept that. I dont know if that is what your saying. I supose it then all depends on how far one believes we are into this prophecy. Anyway i wasnt trying to argue with you just to undersand where you are coming from better. :)
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Didnt everything in these verses get fullfilled by 70AD

  I am saying the above. Then I add that the WTS doctrine is wrong, it takes the sign as "proof"
  that they are right in their circular reasoning. The easiest way to debunk that is not to do an
  elaborate discussion of wars and famine and pestilence (but that can be done) but rather to
  mention Jesus' warning. It shows that any organization (or person) that tries to predict it for
  1914, 1915, 1918, 1925, 1975, the 20th century, or whenever, based on the sign, is MISLEADING.

  You actually seem to have a better grasp on this than I do, so you are doing great.
  I was just a research-doing elder in the Borg. I can explain their theory, but the actual total
  truth of the matter, that's for you to decide. My take is that it was all written after the fact to
  refer to the destruction of Jerusalem. You might think differently.
• 

  beginnersmind

  OTWA thanks for clearing it up i understand completely what your saying now. As for it being written after the destruction of Jerusalem although i believe to the contrary i could not prove it one way or the other. I take it not only have you left the JW behind but the Bible as well? I dont suppose you or anybody could tell me how to put a quote in my posts from someone elses post please? Im having to just retype everything at the minute.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Beginner, when you go to the reply box, you reply to the person you want to quote. His words are
  way down at the bottom of the screen. Scroll down and cut and copy them- Hold the left mouse
  button and drag over his words. Release and right click, choose copy.

  Back up to your reply box, you will see a string of options above the PARAGRAPH FONT SIZE
  selections. The smiley face is for putting emoticons in, right of that is a QUOTE balloon.

  With your prompt on the area you are typing in, click on the QUOTE balloon and it will place a box
  in your reply:

  Go into the box and paste. You can use the clipboard at the top in that string to paste, or CNTRL C
  on your keyboard. Play with it. If you mess up, don't push SUBMIT.
• 

  beginnersmind

  Beginner, when you go to the reply box, you reply to the person you want to quote. His words are
  way down at the bottom of the screen. Scroll down and cut and copy them- Hold the left mouse
  button and drag over his words. Release and right click, choose copy.

  Hope this works, thanks.

  Sorry Doug for hijacking your thread a bit.
• 

  onacruse

  The WTS originally taught that the "time of the end" began in 1799.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  The WTS originally taught that the "time of the end" began in 1799.

  TRUE.

  Just me personally, but I find it sufficient to learn how the stuff they teach as correct now,
  is really wrong, and then be familiar with the previous teachings that they have abandoned.

  I started learning about 1799 and 1874 and I still have great interest in 1925 and 1975, but
  trying to keep up with what they used to teach can bog me down. I am good with knowing
  that they changed what they said about 1914, moving everything to that date- the start of the
  Last days, the end of the Gentile Times, the parousia- and then said they were right all along,
  and then changed their teaching again with "this generation" but otherwise stating that they
  were right all along. They were not right all along, and they aren't right now. That's good for
  me.
• 

  Doug Mason

  Beginnersmind,
  
  I don't feel that you hijacked my thread. In fact, through your questions I have now discovered how to insert quotes. And I enjoyed the ongoing discussion.
  
  While I am replying, I would like to add that it is my view that when Jesus was talking to his disciples about "wars, and so on", he was telling them not to be disturbed by people who were pointing to such events as portents. I think that in one of the parallel synoptics, the sense of his words are something like "cease being concerned about wars".
  
  Doug
• 

  Doug Mason

  The Sign that Jesus gave.
  
  When Jesus answered his Disciples’ question about the sign of the Temple’s destruction, they coupled it with the end of the age (aeon) because the end of the Temple would clearly indicate that the Jewish Age had come to its end.
  
  Likewise, the Disciples believed that this momentous event – the destruction of the Temple – would herald the appearance of Messiah in power. They did not recognize that, instead of coming as a mighty conquering warrior, the Messiah had arrived as a babe. They did not recognize that, instead of coming with almighty power, crushing the nations before it, the Kingdom had come quietly as a farmer sowing seed, and not as a reaper.
  
  They had no idea Jesus was going away. Since he was already with them, the Disciples’ expectation was that Jesus was finally speaking about that great manifestation of power they had long been anticipating. Later, just before Jesus was transported to heaven, the Disciples were still asking him “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” (Acts 1:6, NIV). To which Jesus answered: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority”.
  
  And as he answered his Disciples’ question about the destruction of the Temple, the “Parousia” and the “End of the Age”, Jesus warned them about deceivers who would claim to be Christ (the Anointed One) pointing to wars and stories of wars.
  
  Never did Jesus speak about the size of those wars, their length, scope or number of casualties. All he said was “see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet”.
  
  They would hear about wars simply because “nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom”. Things such as “food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another” are not a sign of the death of an Age but are of the very first signs of the labor pains of a birth.
  
  But Jesus did give his Disciples the “sign” of the powerful coming they were expecting and hoping for: “The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other”. (Matt 24:30, 31, NIV).