JWs: "YOU must pray, then, this way: 'Our Father...'"

by AuldSoul 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  AuldSoul

  agapa37,

  YHWH is never called "the Father" in the Bible. It is certain that the Bible teaches that Jesus prayed to his Father.

  Jesus Christ is the SON of HIS Father. But Jesus is "Our Father in the heavens." (Isaiah 6:9)

  If Jesus is not the Mighty God and Eternal Father of Christians, who is he the Mighty God and Eternal Father of?

  This thread is not a discussion of Jesus relationship to HIS Father, it is a discussion of OUR relationship to OUR Father, Jesus Christ. Or do you say that Christ failed to fulfill Isaiah 6:9 and is not Mighty God and Eternal Father to us Christians?

  The premise I set out is a simple one. Does it mean that YHWH is not Jesus' father, as far as the Bible is concerned? Quite probably, yes. What makes you uncomfortable with the idea that Jesus is our Father and that his Father is our Grandfather? That happens in lots of families, doesn't it?

  Tell you what, feel free to post on topic if you like. For instance, explain what Isaiah 9:6 means when it says the son born to us would be called "Mighty God" and "Eternal Father" if it does not mean what it says it means.

  I get tired of JWs posting reams of "proofs" from when Jesus was on earth that end in nothing—since Jesus was speaking about HIS Father, not ours. I think you do this to avoid discussing a plainly stated prophecy. If you don't think Jesus is your Father and your Mighty God, please explain how Isaiah 9:6 was fulfilled in your case.

  —AuldSoul
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  Death to the Pixies

  Is there a reference in WT literature that states that the Messiah is not our "Eternal Father" and "Mighty God" (or "divine hero"-LXX)? In the OT, try Is. 64:8, where YHWH is "our Father", in the NT, consider Eph 4:4-6 where God (not Christ) is the "Father of all".. Both YHWH and Christ can bear the term "Father" in their own context, just as God can be the "one" Father of the Jews, while also having Abraham be their "Father" in a another sense. (John 8:39-44)

  Jesus can be the Father of the New Covenent, and also should be noted that Is. 9:6 is thought to have an initial fulfilment back then with the Pre-Christian Jews. At least that is how they understood it. I am not sure how you state that God the Father is not still the Father of Christians (in the umltimate sense) based on a Messianic prophecy.It is sense and reference really.
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  drew sagan

  agapa37,
  
  You said:
  
  

  Jesus enemies knew Jesus to be Gods son

  Actually the enimies of Christ felt that his title as 'Son of God' was in effect him saying that he was God.
  
  John 5:18 - For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
  
  Also understand that it is not claimed (at least not by me and many others) that Jesus was simply God. Jesus was both God and Man. There are scriptures that speak of his humanity and scriptures that speak of his divinity. To believe that Jesus was only Man or Only God is not the position taken by the vast majority of Christians.
  
  **** In respect for audsoul I think another thread should be started if a discussion about the deity of Christ is desired to be discussed rather that the specific text he brought up. *****
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  LtCmd.Lore

  The witnesses ignore pretty much this entire prayer...

  "YOU must pray, then, this way: "Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. 11 Give us today our bread for this day; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one."

  The witnesses are required to use gods name, but Jesus didn't say 'Jehovah' in there at all! He said 'father'.

  The Dubs are required to say 'in Jesus name' or 'through your son Jesus we pray'. But Jesus didn't say that was required... in the MODEL PRAYER he didn't say that.

  They are required to say 'amen' but once again, Jesus did not say 'amen' when he was finished he was finished... Once again, the MODEL PRAYER did not include an 'amen'.

  So if Jesus said: "You must pray, then, this way" Why do they completely ignore it?
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  Doubting Bro

  AuldSoul,

  In this weeks bookstudy, I actually brought this point of in a round about way. The Rev book commented that Jesus was the only one directly resurrected as a spirit person by Jehovah. All the rest of the annointed would be actually resurrected by Jesus. I took advantage of this by commenting on this very scripture. I said this is why Christians call Jesus "Eternal Father" because he would resurrect EVERYONE whether in heaven or on earth.

  The fact is that Jesus is way underemphasized by the WTS.
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  SirNose586

  So if Jesus said: "You must pray, then, this way" Why do they completely ignore it?

  Because Christians tie in John 13:14 (for asking things in Jesus' name). I'm not sure where "the amen" came from.
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  Fred E Hathaway

  One reference to "amen" is at 1 Cor.14:16. We also know from Rev.3:14 that the resurrected Jesus Christ, the faithful and true witness, refers to himself also as the Amen and the beginning of the creation by [Jehovah] God.
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  AuldSoul

  The book of Romans has quite a few expressions of praise ending with "Amen."

  2 Corinthians 1:19-20 — For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among YOU through us, that is, through me and Sil·va´nus and Timothy, did not become Yes and yet No, but Yes has become Yes in his case. For no matter how many the promises of God are, they have become Yes by means of him. Therefore also through him is the "Amen" [said] to God for glory through us. (NWT)

  According to the Bible, Jesus both causes to become and He saves. Nothing in the Bible says otherwise.

  Revelation 1:5-6 — To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood—and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

  Prayer. A prayer of praise. To whom? Also, a distinction is made "to his God and Father", not "to our God and Father."

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  cyberguy

  AuldSoul,

  I’m not exactly sure what you are trying to get at in this thread, but if you’re suggesting that the “Our Father” in the “Lord’s Prayer” is Jesus himself, because in Isaiah 9:6 he is prophetically called an “Eternal Father,” then I would have to kindly disagree. I just don’t see the connection here since Jesus was merely showing how to pray to God. However, I do agree with you in that the WT reduces Jesus’ role to a position of insignificance, in comparison to the “organization.” In effect, the “organization” is the (false) Messiah of the WT. And I also suspect that 1st century Christians talked (prayed?) to Jesus directly after his resurrection, asking him for help the same as they did when he walked the earth.

  Regarding Isaiah 9:6, the Oxford Bible Commentary has an interesting comment:

  v. 6, here is the climax of the Psalm. If as is quite likely, God is the speaker, then what seems like an announcement of a birth may more properly be understood as a coronation or enthronement of an earthly king (cf. Ps 2:7), where the king is proclaimed as God’s son. What follows is a series of titles, possibly comparable to the titles given to Egyptian pharaohs (von Rad 1966a). Four throne-names are given to the newly crowned ruler: ‘Wonderful Counselor’ speaks of the potential achievements of the king: the word translated ‘wonderful’ comes from the same root as that regularly used of God’s mighty deliverance at the Exodus. ‘Mighty God’ may imply divine kingship, for which there is some evidence in ancient Israel (cf. Ps 45:6), or ‘God’ here may be a kind of superlative: ‘Divine Warrior’. ‘Everlasting Father’ brings out the theme of the king as protector, ‘father’, of his people; and ‘Prince of Peace’ implies both freedom from war and the prosperity implicit in salom. In traditional Judaism, these oracles were applied to Hezekiah, around whom an elaborate series of legends developed. In Christianity, the belief of the early followers of Jesus concerning his Status made it natural for these words to be applied to him also, though NT allusions are only implicit (Jacob 1987: 141).
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  Fred E Hathaway

  the blind lead the blind ... and both fall into a pit.