Jehovah's great justice (page 3)

fifi40

Stark thank you for your response, but this leads me to further questions or confusion over this whole issue

Ok they are humanly perfect, and even if I allow for the fact that something that is perfect has the ability to be flawed also, it does not stand god in a good light that he needed these two human beings to prove that they loved him. They didnt ask to be created and in his creating of them, he also created 'sin' or the ability to sin. If he gave them freedom to choose; why not let them have just that, the freedom to choose. As a result of needing to be loved, admired, worshipped by the things HE had created he then allowed for them to be sent down a route that would cause suffering, immense hardship, loss of life, tradgedy, sorrow and acts of horrendous evil to befall them and any of their offspring. How can one possibly connect this to a god of love. It makes no sense. It appears he is basically having a game of chess with satan and we are the pieces on his board.

What words of comfort can a believer in this god give to a parent who has just lost their child to a serious illness, to a wife who has lost her husband because of a war or to the millions that starve to death each year?

He is basically saying I created you with the ability to choose but I want to decide how you choose, and if you dont do it my way for some of you I am going to make life unbearable and horrific?

I created you with the ability to sin and if you do sin, despite the fact that I created you or made you that way and you had no choice in the matter, I am going to punish you severley.

How does this add up to a God of love or a forgiving god?

avidbiblereader

We all still have hope, they don't!

Which do you want?

abr

Zico

: We all still have hope, they don't!

: Which do you want?

I don't understand your point abr, could you expand? Who's 'they'?

avidbiblereader

The fallen angels, Satan or even Adam and Eve, it may appear that their justice was put off for a long time and our sentence was immediate without any thought for the human family, but what hope do they have that were mentioned in your thread?

abr

Zico

: The fallen angels, Satan or even Adam and Eve, it may appear that their justice was put off for a long time and our sentence was immediate without any thought for the human family, but what hope do they have that were mentioned in your thread?

Thanks for explaining. My point about the waiting thing, was because Jehovah's Witnesses say that Adam and Eve had to lose their perfecton straight away, but Satan didn't get punished till 1914. This is why I question why Jehovah had to punish Adam and Eve straight away, and not wait like he did with Satan, couldn't he have just left Adam and Eve perfect until they had children? Then they would have had perfect children, not effected by their sin.

I still can't help but compare it to the situation of the angels, the angels who were faithful have still been rewarded, and not effected by those angels who weren't faithful. I have to wonder why God didn't allow man the same thing? We should have all have been given the chance to obey God without having any disobedience effecting anyone else, like the angels.

I really like you though abr, even though I disagree with you. :)

avidbiblereader

I still can't help but compare it to the situation of the angels, the angels who were faithful have still been rewarded, and not effected by those angels who weren't faithful. I have to wonder why God didn't allow man the same thing?

They also had proven themselves for eions of time, something that we did

Gen 18:25 25 Surely you wouldn’t do such a thing, destroying the righteous along with the wicked. Why, you would be treating the righteous and the wicked exactly the same! Surely you wouldn’t do that! Should not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?”

abr

sir82

Wait, I'm confused:

God made humans humanly perfect, with the potential, or rather, the ability to sin. As for God...He is absolutely perfect, there is no potential for flaw.

God: "absolutely perfect, no potential fior flaw" i.e., incapable of sin

Humans: "the ability to sin"

Explain to me how it is, exactly, that humans were created "in God's image"?

Actually, it sounds like humans are created as something greater than God - they can do something he can't!

zack

I don't have a problem with it.

stark

Found-my-way “

So where was Satan when God asked Satan about Job?”

bluebell “No he didnt, Satan still had access to heaven. See eg of Job also Im sure the point of access to heaven before 1914 has been discussed in WBTS literature. I was bought up to believe that before 1914 he had access to heaven, otherwise how could he be kicked of of heaven in 1914?I think Satan and demons were cut off from gods love/sustinence straight off but definitely still had right to roam until 1914.”

Satanus “Then, why did he keep satan around, to come and go into his holy court for thousands of yrs?”

Here are a few quotes that I’m putting together, seeing as they are on the same subject.

Satan was kick out of heaven in the sense that it was no longer his home, he does not belong there. The Bible doesn’t say that satan was forbidden to ever enter again. Not only is there the case of Job where satan comes before God, but there is also Revelation where it says that satan is before God always accusing the believer.

As for the 1914 thing...That belongs to the J.W... they should probably forget the prophecy stuff and concentrate on finding the true Jesus.

stark

Zico,

Here are some points you made from a post of yours that I didn’t get to:

“This is besides my point.
When an angel 'sins' or 'rebels against God' no other angel is effected by that sin. Why not all? Because that wouldn't be fair.”

All the other angels already existed when satan sinned, the other angels didn’t do anything wrong and since they are not born from parents they are not handed a sin nature.

“When the first human 'rebelled against God' all other humans were punished for it, because they lost their 'perfection' (see Kid-a's post for why this is ridiculous, thanks Kid-a)”

All the other humans were handed a sin nature, but are punished for their own sin...have you ever sinned? If so you don’t need to be concerned about Adam and Eve you need to be concerned about the sin in your own life.

“The angels don't need that, because they weren't condemned for the actions of a few other angels. I think I'd prefer to be born perfect, and not have needed Jesus.”

Well that may be, but you weren’t born perfect...you were born innocent with an imperfect sin nature, and grew sinful (as we all were), and your need for the salvation offered by Jesus is still there.

“We need forgiveness because God made it impossible for us NOT to sin by screwing us up for the mistakes of 2.”

Let me adjust that to read: We need forgiveness because God made us with the ability to choose to follow Him or not to follow Him, and we have chosen not to follow Him.

Just a reminder, God didn’t just leave us hanging with this sin nature hanging over us, and leaving us with no option but to pay the penalty for our own sin. God has come in the flesh, and paid for the sins we have committed, and has once again left us an option, accept and have eternal life, reject; pay for your sins yourself.

Jehovah's great justice

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