Adam's Error and the Butterfly Effect

by jgnat 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jgnat

  The jewish messiah was to release them from their oppressors. I don't think ALL jews were hoping the Messiah would grant them eternal life.
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  Blueblades

  Jgnat, AlanF Has debunked the need for a Ransom because of what Adam did, on his site somewhere. He demonstrates how the ransom is flawed. Maybe you can find it and post it again for us, being that the memorial season is upon the rank and file. I can't clip and paste from his site to here.

  Blueblades
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  gaiagirl

  Did Jews in the 1st Century (or for that matter, in the 21st Century) expect the Messiah to grant eternal life, or merely to set them free from their Roman "oppressors"? Israel had been "subject to" other nations for many centuries by the time of Jesus, and I had always read that the Messiah was expected to lead them in revolt against whatever nation was over them at the time, and to reestablishment of an independent nation of Israel.
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  jgnat

  AlanF's essays: http://corior.blogspot.com/

  AlanF's refutation of the Ransom Sacrifice argument: http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/gods-justice-sin-imperfection-and.html

  Jewish beliefs on the afterlife: http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm
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  forsharry

  When he was resurrected... was he 'perfect'? Not according to the JW's way of teaching. Supposedly he was resurrected to an 'imperfect world'... and so would die again.

  This is in reference to Lazarus, and that got me thinking...so I did a little bit of research (collective gasp) and come to find out that the "Lazarus Story" as an example of midrashic style of story-telling. The basis of the story was that Lazarus was excommunicated and Jesus went against temple authorities by reversing the excommunication and bringing him "back to life." Jesus assumed authority and it was accepted by those around him.

  Jesus was notified when Lazarus was in the early stages of excommunication---he was "sick." Lazarus' "death" was the completed excommunication. This suggests that during the 1st century era, to be excommunicated was equivalent to being "dead."

  When Jesus arived and called for Lazarus to "come forth," Lazarus was brought back to "life" by Jesus' authority. This would have put Jesus in opposition to the Temple authorites who likely would have issued the excommunication in the first place thereby putting himself (Jesus) in the position of being a 'divine representative' .

  The type of judaic sect that Jesus' belonged to practiced excommunication...much in the way that our modern day nemesis does. It wasn't a physical death, but a 'spiritual' one that jesus brought Lazarus back from. With this 'story' taken into a more literal midrashic sense, it doesn't create the type of paradoxical situation that was spoken about above.

  I know it's a little off topic but I'm a little surprised that the 'possibility' of Lazarus' death being of a social or spiritual natural instead of a literal one wasn't brought up. :)
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  Jim_TX

  "The basis of the story was that Lazarus was excommunicated and Jesus went against temple authorities by reversing the excommunication and bringing him "back to life." "

  Actually... this makes a lot more sense than the fairy tale that is espoused in the bible - or by the JWs.

  The way I remember it being told (complete with the drawing of a wrapped corpse - like a mummy), he called a dead person out from his tomb, back to life.

  It being an excommunicated issue makes more sense.

  Thanks!!!

  Regards,

  Jim TX