Memorial 2007 (page 2)

Cellist

AlphaOmega, there's debate over whether Judas was present or not. Some say that he had been dismissed before the ceremony of the bread and wine.

Cellist

Honesty

Can anyone show me where the Bible talks about the other followers of Jesus observing without partaking and recognizing themselves to be of another class? As we all know, they don't just make up this stuff, so it must be there.

BWAAAH HAAH HAAH

AlphaOmega

Luke 22:20-21 NWT
[20]
Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.

[21]
"But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table.

Mark 14:18-20 NWT
[18]
And as they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said: "Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU, who is eating with me, will betray me."

[19]
They started to be grieved and to say to him one by one: "It is not I, is it?"

[20]
He said to them: "It is one of the twelve, who is dipping with me into the common bowl.

Matthew 26:21 NWT
[21]
While they were eating, he said: "Truly I say to YOU, One of YOU will betray me."

John 13:26-28 NWT
[26]
Therefore Jesus answered: "It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip." And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·car'i·ot.

[27]
And after the morsel then Satan entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: "What you are doing get done more quickly."

[28]
However, none of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he said this to him.

I can't see why there is any debate over whether Judas was present. The Bible confirms this.

Is it only in JW circles that there is debate?

It's probably only in JW circles that there's any debate. I have no idea what other religions say on the matter. But I'll quote for you the JW reasoning on this.

Insight on the Scriptures Vol.2, Pg. 130;

'Immediately Judas left the group. A comparison of Matthew 26:20-29 with John 13:21-30 indicates that he departed before Jesus instituted the celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal. Luke's presentation of this incident evidentally is not in strict chronological order, for Judas had definitely left by the time Christ commended the group for having stuck with him; that would not fit Judas, nor would he have been taken "into the covenant... for a kingdom." Luke 22:19-30'

Cellist

Robert222

So, is there a biblical record of the memorial celebration after the death of christ? Was it supposed to be only a command to the apostles of christ at the last supper? The memorial would end with their reunion with christ in heaven?

jeanV

some references (not in agreement with each other):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Supper

http://www.sonofman.org/last.htm

http://dailywisdom.gospelcom.net/archives/2006/04/02/index.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14341a.htm

*** it-2p.270Lord’sEveningMeal***

Partakers andOtherAttendersattheMeal. Jesus had gathered his 12 apostles, saying to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer.” (Lu 22:15) But John’s eyewitness account indicates that Jesus dismissed the traitorous Judas before instituting the Memorial meal. During the Passover, Jesus, knowing that Judas was his betrayer, dipped a morsel of the Passover meal and handed it to Judas, instructing him to leave. (Joh 13:21-30) Mark’s account also intimates this order of events. (Mr 14:12-25) During the Lord’s Evening Meal that followed, Jesus passed the bread and the wine to the 11 remaining apostles, telling them to eat and drink. (Lu 22:19, 20) Afterward he spoke to them as “the ones that have stuck with me in my trials,” a further indication that Judas had been dismissed.—Lu 22:28.

jeanV

Please post full outline, as this js the first year I'm not going, since 1967

If I get it I'll post it (provided I find out how to do it )

M.J.

If the guy REALLY said this, he was probably talking out of his a$$...

HOWEVER, I believe this IS a doctrine that is coming! Maybe he was jumping the gun.

The forthcoming QFR on the heavenly hope not necessarily ending in 1935 makes what he said a natural possibility.

If the calling of the 144,000 is not restricted to a certain time period, AND does not have to be completed BEFORE the calling of the "other sheep" (earthly class) begins, then the "other sheep" calling didn't necessarily have to start in 1935. It could have started back in the 1st century.

So the WTS can now start teaching that the 144,000 always existed alongside the "other sheep", just as they do today. This would resolve a lot of issues for them! It's pretty hard to explain how there were only 144,000 true Christians from 33 CE to 1935 (actually 1931). But with this "new light" they can say that the 144,000 were a "select few" among a greater number of "other sheep" all along.

uninformed

It's probably only in JW circles that there's any debate. I have no idea what other religions say on the matter. But I'll quote for you the JW reasoning on this.

Insight on the Scriptures Vol.2, Pg. 130;

'Immediately Judas left the group. A comparison of Matthew 26:20-29 with John 13:21-30 indicates that he departed before Jesus instituted the celebration of the Lord's Evening Meal. Luke's presentation of this incident evidentally is not in strict chronological order, for Judas had definitely left by the time Christ commended the group for having stuck with him; that would not fit Judas, nor would he have been taken "into the covenant... for a kingdom." Luke 22:19-30'

Cellist

Cellist, thanks for the great quote above. Of course this is more Bible bending by the faithless and indiscreet slave.

The WT reasoning is wrong here. Judas was apparantly present according to LUKE, but later left BEFORE THE SECOND COVENANT was made, the COVENANT FOR A KINGDOM.

A casual or serious reading of the account will easily clear this up. 'Course, what did Luke know, he was only there.

Brant

nvrgnbk

I grow increasingly weary of their bull$hit.

Nvr

Memorial 2007

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