by *jeremiah* 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Papha...just a correction regarding Russell - right up until his death in 1916 - he continued to teach that fleshly Israel would be restored to divine favour - this view is still held by the Bible Students Association. It was Rutherford who began to spiritualise these scripture references.
If interetsed in current Bible Student view on Isael see the link http://www.biblestudents.com/FreeBibleVideos.cfm and watch the video Israel Fulfilling Bible Prophecy.
Mary,
Thanks for the research. It (their explanation) really doens't get anymore lame than that. I like how they just barely touch on this issue and really don't explain anything. After the frustration wears off,...it makes for a good laugh.
I wonder if this chapter in Romans and the surrounding issues are ever even touched upon these days inside the organization? I'm thinking it might be avoided like the plague because it must cause much confusion among the sheeple.
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jeshurun,
Thanks for your commentary. Makes sense! I think we have very similar views on the matter and I appreciate the way that you explain things.
A couple questions for you (somewhat along the same lines):
Let's talk about a different tree for a sec:
32 "Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.Matt 24
what do u think? Is this national Israel regaining it's statehood in 1948 or when national Israel regains it's spirituality (valley of dry bones) sometime in the future?
....and After this:
In the course of the 70th Week the Jews face an ultimate decision: Will they accept at last their true Messiah, Jesus, or will they follow to a catastrophic end the pseudo-Christ?
just a speculative subject here but,...when Israel flees from Judea, do you believe that's literal, and any speculation where they are going.
Some say that they might be going to Petra. Some say the US will still be in the picture because it mentions, "on the wings of an eagle." Anyways,....any personal speculations?
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Raphael,
Thanks,....very interesting.
What's just as interesting for me is that there is a Bible Students Association.
Most mainstream churches, including the Catholic church until the second half of the 20th century, have held some form of "substitution theology" implying that Christianity was the "true" or "spiritual" Israel. So when Rutherford reversed Russell's teachings on Israel he actually reverted to "mainstream theology" (for a change).
It is true that there is more than substitution theology to Romans 11, the conclusion being fairly universalistic (including Israel in a kind of "the first will be last but they will be in somehow"). However, one must keep in mind that Paul's perspective never extended to 20 + centuries of "Christianity" to come. What he expected was a conviction/conversion/salvation of those 1st-century Jews (including Jewish "Christians") who currently rejected his law-free, Gentile-oriented, own brand of "Christianity" -- not their descendents over 60 generations later. And this (as all early eschatological expectations) simply did not happen.
What every new generation of eschatological-minded Christians has done ever since is picking up the lost threads of failed prophecy to rearrange them in new futuristic scenarii, according to the new historical developments, and influencing the latter at the same time. This interaction of resurgent reshuffled "prophecy" and history is particularly obvious in the 20th-century history of Zionism and the Israeli state. But to claim "scriptural authority" for any of those new constructions just because they use some scriptural material is quite shortsighted imo.
Thanks Jeremiah for this great topic. Very interesting.
Regarding Russell, he totally believed in the salvation of Israel. In fact, he taught that at the close of the "Gospel Age" (i.e., the full implementation of the Millennial Age), the Church would be transferred to heaven as glorified spirit creatures while natural Israel would take charge of the kingdom on earth, with its capital in Jerusalem. The natural Jews would convert to Christianity (thus all Israel will be saved), God would make the New Covenant with them (the New Covenant did not apply to Christians during the Gospel Age, but to mankind during the Millennial Age according to Russell), and they would lead the way in bringing Gentiles in under the New Covenant, which would lead them on the path to human perfection.
I have some thoughts on this, you guys wanna hear them?
Lol, DttP, is that "new light teasing"?
Come on, you know we want to...
Jeremiah
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.Matt 24
what do u think? Is this national Israel regaining it's statehood in 1948 or when national Israel regains it's spirituality (valley of dry bones) sometime in the future?
No, I don’t think so.
Imo, Jesus does not put any emphasis on Israel in Mt 24:32.
The parable of the fig tree has nothing to do with the establishment of Israel as a national state in 1948.
Jesus is merely saying that when the Messianic Jews of the end-time see the events, characteristic for his parousia, taking place, then they can be sure that his coming for judgment is near. His statement is still within the scope of his reaction on the question of Mt 24:3.
Besides, The parallel passage in Luke 21:29 excludes any reference to Israel in the parable:
Behold the fig tree and all the trees!
In my perception the time for the fulfilment of the restoration prophecies will not come until the 70th Week has its start.
What I do believe is that JHWH God in his providence has foreseen the various developments in connection with the establishment of the State of Israel and the subsequent events, such as the return of many Jews out of their Diaspora to Palestine.
That course of affairs is in the present time shaping the precise circumstances for the fulfilment of Daniel 9:27, at the start of the 70th Week. As predicted the pseudo-Christ will then make a covenant with “the many”; an agreement however, which he will break in the middle of the Week:
And he will confirm a covenant to the many, for one week,—but, in the middle of the week, will cause sacrifice and present to cease(Da 9:27a; Rotherham).
Pse compare:
The highways are deserted, no travelers are on the roads.
The treaty is broken, its witnesses are despised, no one is respected.
Is 33:8; NIV [NWT: He has broken the covenant...]
Jeremiah
In the course of the 70th Week the Jews face an ultimate decision: Will they accept at last their true Messiah, Jesus, or will they follow to a catastrophic end the pseudo-Christ?
just a speculative subject here but,...when Israel flees from Judea, do you believe that's literal, and any speculation where they are going.
Yes, I deem it most probable that the flight must be understood literally. Why?
Because that flight of the Messianic Remnant will be their response to the erection of “the abomination of desolation” in a rebuilt temple [the future Third Temple] at [the literal] Jerusalem (Mt 24:15).
In the middle of the 70th Week, when the pseudo-Christ breaks his covenant with the Jews, he obviously erects a dreadful idol in that rebuilt temple.
Compare Is 66:1-6 and Rev 13:14-15.
Apparently that event has a relation with 2 Thess 2:4
He [the Man of Lawlessness, alias the Pseudo-Christ] will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
At that time the Great Tribulation is for the pious Remnant more than imminent!
So, their flight to the mountainous region of Judea is rather plausible.
As Thomas Ice commented:
<< Verses 16-20 describe the recommended response of the faithful who see the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem. They are to get out as fast as they can. Why? It is because the second-half of the tribulation will be a time of persecution and great tribulation for the Jewish remnant… Therefore, the sooner that the Remnant can get out of town, then the less likely it will be that antichrist will be able to persecute the Jews.
Another reason why they will be able to flee instantly is because they will be miraculously provided for and protected as they make their way to Petra for three and a half years of safekeeping… Matthew 24:16-20 provides a set of instructions for the Remnant. Christ tells them where to go: the Judean mountains. Jesus says to flee instantly. Don't even take a few minutes to collect a few personal belongings like your cloak in the field or a few items from your house for the journey. He warns that it will be difficult to navigate the mountainous terrain if pregnant or nursing a newborn. Jesus does not say that it will be impossible, but it will be difficult…Other passages provide a more complete picture of this three and a half year wilderness sojourn. etc >>
Among the other passages Ice mentions are:
Rev 12:6, 14
Is 41:17-20
Micah 2:12
Jeremiah:
I enjoyed reading your article and wrote a couple of articles on similar subjects on my blog at http://www.noahide.typepad.com/ I also agree with your point that G-d's promise to the Jews has been and will be fulfilled for all eternity. However, unlike JWs who feel that ONLY they will survive their vision of G-d's judgement, the REAL Bible as shown in the Hebrew Scriptures (The Torah/Tanakh) reveals that there is hope for everyone.
