The first time Jesus was on Earth

by purplesofa 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Narkissos

  Formally Hebrews 9:28 is indeed an exception: so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time (ek deuterou), not to deal with sin, but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

  But the Lukan ascension, for instance, implies a similar pattern.

  Otoh, the "first" time is "already" much of a multiple comeback, if you think of all the reminiscences of past characters that are explicitly or implicitly woven into the Gospel stories -- making the earthly Jesus appear as a second...Adam, Enoch (especially as the Son of Man), Melchizedek, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elijah, Elisha, Jonah, Jeremiah, even John the Baptist. Many of those historical, legendary or mythical characters being confusely expected to come (back or again) one way or another at the end of time. "He who comes" is made of many returns. At the center of the Synoptic Gospels, the narrative unit leading from the question "who do people say I am" to the Transfiguration story where Elijah and Moses merge into Jesus, so to say (Mrk 8:27--9), is exemplar in this regard.
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  purplesofa

  Carmel,

  are you saying you are ready for a new paradigm?

  Have you got any suggestions?

  zeroday.

  I might suggest the book, "The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man" by Robert Price. It will blow your mind...

  Thanks I will get this book.

  Narkissos,

  but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

  save them from .......?

  purps
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  Narkissos

  but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

  save them from .......?

  Lol, ask the author of Hebrews... I don't think he gives any definition of final salvation (as implied here), btw.

  Otoh, Hebrews offers one of the best definitions of "freedom" in the Bible imho, in 2:14f:

  Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death.
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  purplesofa

  Nark

  he might destroy the one who has the power of death

  I just dont like that word being there, why would there not be an absolute assurance?

  purps

  edited to add: on an individual basis I can understand.....but not for mankind on a whole.
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  avidbiblereader

  I have been thinnking today, where in the bible does it say that Christ will come THE FIRST TIME.

  Daniel 9:24-27

  24 “There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. 25 And you should know and have the insight [that] from the going forth of [the] word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Mes·si´ah [the] Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times. 26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Mes·si´ah will be cut off, with nothing for himself.“And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. 27 “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. “And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.”

  And I really wonder why there was such a long wait for his arrival. What purpose did it serve? What were humans supposed to be figuring out? Like right now everyone is waiting for all this stuff to happen for his reign.

  Nothing like time to settle EVERYTHING, I always try to remember that even though it has taken so long to this point and we are still not there for now. Man has only suffered one lifetime, no one person has suffered for all these thousands of years.

  abr
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  Narkissos

  Hi purps,

  he might destroy the one who has the power of death

  I just dont like that word being there, why would there not be an absolute assurance?

  Cutting sentences asunder is not the best way to understand them. My full quote (from the NRSV) was:

  Since, therefore, the children share flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared the same things, so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by the fear of death.

  English is not my first language, but I understand "might" here as a mere modal auxiliary for the main verb ("destroy"), which is required in a final clause (introduced by "so that") indicating consequence or intention (not sure about the English grammatical terms) -- the equivalent of the Greek subjunctive. Iow, "might" here does not suggest a mere possibility, and there is nothing in the Greek text to indicate that (lit. "so that he destroy," katargèsè, subjunctive).

  abr, you might wish to read a recent scholarly commentary on Daniel 9 some day to see how the sentence is to be construed and which "messiah(s)" (anointed) is/are referred to. See http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101978/1.ashx for a start.
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  purplesofa

  Thanks Nark very much

  English is not my first language, but I understand "might" here as a mere modal auxiliary for the main verb ("destroy"), which is required in a final clause (introduced by "so that") indicating consequence or intention (not sure about the English grammatical terms) -- the equivalent of the Greek subjunctive. Iow, "might" here does not suggest a mere possibility, and there is nothing in the Greek text to indicate that (lit. "so that he destroy," katargèsè, subjunctive).

  purps
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  Leolaia

  A better translation of Daniel 9:24-27:

  "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city, until crime is stopped, sins brought to full measure, guilt expiated, everlasting justice introduced, the prophetic vision confirmed, and the Holy of Holies anointed (w-lmshch qdsh qdshym). Know, then, and understand this: from the utterance of the word regarding the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the coming of the anointed leader (mshych ngyd) there will be seven weeks. Then during sixty-two weeks it will be rebuilt, with its streets and moat, but in a time of distress. After the sixty-two weeks an anointed one (mshych) will be cut down, when the city is no longer his; and the soldiers of a coming prince will ruin the sanctuary (h-qdsh). Then the end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war. For one week he will make a strong alliance with many; for half a week he will abolish sacrifice and oblation and upon their place will be an appalling abomination, until the decreed ruin is poured out upon the appaller" (Anchor Bible).

  Notice the links between the "sanctuary" (qdsh) and the "Holy of Holies" (qdsh qdshym) and the "anointed one" (mshych) and the anointing (mshch) of the Holy of Holies; the text is talking about the restoration of the Temple and priesthood after the exile and how the city and priesthood would later be destroyed by a "coming prince" (i.e. Antiochus Epiphanes, the "little horn" of ch. 8, who would "remove the daily sacrifice, set up an appalling offense, and defile the sanctuary" until the end when "the sanctuary will be purified", 8:13-14). In the original Hebrew text, there are two separate "anointed ones" separated by a period of 62 weeks between them; these represented two individuals in a line of high priests who "anointed the Holy of Holies" (cf. Leviticus 4:3, 5, 16, 6:15 on the high priests as "anointed ones"). The earliest Jewish and Christian interpretations of Daniel 9:25, in fact, regarded "the anointed leader" as Joshua son of Jozadek (cf. Zechariah 4:6-10, which refers to Joshua son of Jozadek and Zerubabbel as the "sons of oil"). The anointed one who is cut off is generally regarded to be Onias III, who was assassinated about 3 1/2 years before Antiochus installed the abomination of desolation in the Temple (cf. 2 Maccabees 4:33-35, Daniel 11:22, 1 Enoch 90:8). The early Christian (i.e. late second century AD onward) messianic interpretation followed the Greek rendering of Theodotion which refers to the "cutting-off of the chrism" and thus regarded the chrism as started by Joshua son of Jozadek and ended by either Christ or the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. Even here the interpretation did not see a reference to the death of Jesus in the text. The later messianic interpretation was facilitated by conflating the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks into a single time period, allowing the two anointed figures to be identified with each other. Here the NWT follows the Greek of Theodotion, and not the Hebrew. And transliterating mshych here as "Messiah" in the NWT (and in other Christian translations) forces this messianic interpretation into the text. Note that here alone in the OT does the word "Messiah" appear in the NWT; in Leviticus 4:3, for instance, we have "the anointed one" and not "the Messiah", and "his anointed one" occurs in Isaiah 45:1 instead of "his Messiah".
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  purplesofa

  Thank you for the information Leolaia