by gaiagirl 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
God killed many people in bible times for good reason. It wasn't what they actually did that mattered, it was the principle that really mattered. - sexyk
Good reason? Such as? Which of the above were reasons manufactured by the Society and not explicitly written in the Bible?
So God snuffed out lives to prove a point? That is the God you wouldn't criticize?
INQ
Most of you posters seem to think that this vapor of a life span riddled with hatred, jealousy, pride, lying and theivery qualifies to be called a Life in a theological sense.
Can a man be judged twice for the same crime? Our entire species already stands judged as a moral abberation. You can only imagine a moral life, you cannot live one. Which of you can say that he hasn't lied? Or, can say that he/she has never stolen anything? Which one of you accusers of God has never looked at a married person with lust or at anyone with lust while married?
Each of you then are liars, theives, and adulterers.... the very things you seek not to be! You are all perversions of your own moral imaginations.
Each of you has wished terrible things upon people who have wronged you, even as you are guilty of doing the same wrongs. Then, you judge God for carrying out the same judgemets that you have thought about meteing out. Hypocrits!
If God chooses to bring about a punishment that is due a few minutes earlier than what is natural for his own purposes, what of it? After a fair trial, if a judge decides to carry out a death sentence on a Monday instead of a Friday he is not responsible for the convicted's punishment. You are all blind cowards that are twisted into the shape of someting that can no longer think, nor see, nor feel. You all feel fear only when something threatens your precious bodies, because that is all that matters to you....avoidance of pain in the here and now. However, it is not the pain of the body you should fear!
I declare to you that the very concept of justice demands punishment. If there were no punishment for traffic laws or violent crime, could that system be said to be lawful? Of course not, if they were not enforced. Law would remain just some silly theory in some professors' mind in a society like that.
The only way for Law to even exist is for there to be punishment. No punishment...no Law. So instead of looking at the deep dilemma that each of you are in, you judge God using the instrument of denial of your own guilt as some sort of phony argument to declare his non existence. Yet, each of you fear the police, am I right? Each of you fear the Judge that you go before for your traffic vioaltions, am I right?
These are not the ones to fear. You all have a much greater problem on your hands. Each of your sins must be punished. Jesus himself tells you.
FEAR THIS:
But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire-- 48 where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.
Hi Keith. Your "scriptures" are pretty damned silly too. Pay attention to what you're reading.
Perry:
Are you sure you are on the right site? None of what I read here seems to be directed at the Creator, but rather at the "God" of the Hebrews, which they may
have in fact manufactured and used to justify their own imperialism and misdeeds. Do you think it is any accident that the priesthood was given to Aaron? He
was Moses' brother, dude. Nothing like a little nepotism, huh? Men have used "God" as a front for centuries, what makes you think the jews were any different?
"Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone." 1 Kings 14:10
So, guys, next time you duck into an alley to relieve yourself, don't do it against a wall. Jehovah just might GET you!
There is a reason I took this alias.
The Society loves to cite Uzzah as a bad example of one who did not trust in Jehovah to care for his spiritual things (ark). Yet out of good intention Uzzah reached out and steadied the ark out of respect and not wanting it to fall into the mud/dirt.
God saw fit to smite him despite it being the elders (priests) fault for not carrying the ark properly.
For this, the old testament god is a bastard and the WTBS using Uzzah as an example to keep brainwashed good hearted people in line are even more a bastard.
Uzzah
While I have no real need to justify or defend any of the biblical stories there are other factors to consider:
1/ The form of the story reflects the scribes agenda. Just as we have an nth generation copy of the NT it gets even worse for the OT that was recorded as having been re-'gathered' at least once and is clearly an admixture of different sources (Egyptian influences for Proverbs for example.) As an actual factual history it must be treated ay arms length. Can we be certain that the stick picker didn't just keel over from a heart attack, maybe decompose for a bit in the sun and when found the scribes ascribed it to God as a simple cause and effect mistake. I suspect that in a non-scientific age when the unexplained was ascribed to God , Jehovah got saddled with a lot of stuff. Our foolishness is to continue to try and excuse God and condemn ourselves within the framework of the limited facts - i.e. He was breaking the sabbath ergo he was guilty and by extrapolation we'd better be good on Sundy and do no work.
2/ Just as we see in the variety of cultures around us it is not always in the best interests of the greater good to impose 'enlightened' sensibilities upon them. I'm not certain people in Baghdad are thrilled by the somewhat ironic imposition of democracy. The death of one individual for something innocuous (picking up sticks) may work to the better good (and no I don't know how.) The point is that all things being equal Jehovah doesn't kill on a whim (otherwise the unchanging God would be doing it now and the Sabbath would be a bloodbath) so clearly we don't have the full context or implications of God's action or inaction (bearing in mind point 1 in which case it might be nothing to do with God.)
3/ There may well be major justification in the claim that - just like every other culture that believes in a deity - there is clear boasting to engender common purpose, national pride, identity and fear in rivals. Having a God who can strike from the heavens and is merciless is a good propaganda tool when you are trying to control an unruly people and invade existing populations. What is a horrific story to us may be a major hero behaviour to an ancient warrior people. An outbreak of plague is so much more effective as a weapon if your God can be linked to it. In Jesus we do find an attempt to re-interpret the scripture - the military messiah was nothing of the sort despite the clear OT references to a conquerer (again we still find the odd sermon trying to suggest that Jesus was fighting to free them in the greater battle against Satan when really it may be the scripture - overzealous hopes of the priests - that was wrong and the Messiah would deliver them individually but not militarily or politically.)
4/ If this life is a fallen state cut off from the presence of God and is a place of pain and sorrow and after death there is something better it might not be such a bad thing to leave early. The dead stick picker might not be too keen to come back should he be given a choice. Our perspective is limited to here and now and the fear of no more.
5/ If we could spend a day observing say the battle on the Somme we'd quit whingeing at some ancient God. Mankind is more than capable of killing and maiming for no reason at all.
That said, I don't use the OT much at all now - it is pretty weird.
Each of you has wished terrible things upon people who have wronged you, even as you are guilty of doing the same wrongs. Then, you judge God for carrying out the same judgemets that you have thought about meteing out. Hypocrits!
How can you not see the difference between thinking about doing something, and acctually doing it? According to that logic: if I wish someone were dead I may as well go ahead and murder them, because the thought and the deed are equal crimes? If I want something, I may as well steal it because thinking about taking it is just as bad as doing it.
KILL GEORGE BUSH!!!! <- There, I just made you think about assassinating the president, you're in big trouble now!
My personal thoughts are none of your, nor gods, business. Butt out, I'll THINK about whatever I want.
It's actions that matter, and gods actions are UNJUST and EVIL.
There is a lot more to justice then just killing bad people. Some crimes like shoplifting and speeding don't deserve the death penalty, people aren't killed for such trivial things because that would be unjust. Yet the god of the bible kills people for things like picking up stick on the wrong day or eating the meat he provides for them. Things that don't harm anyone at all, but they were killed for it anyway.
If God chooses to bring about a punishment that is due a few minutes earlier than what is natural for his own purposes, what of it?
First of all there is no reason to believe that this judgement is in fact 'due'. Adam and Eve are not affiliated with me, I have never murdered, or raped anyone, in fact I'm still a virgin who never stole anything after turning 13. What did I, personally do wrong?
Punishing all humans is genocide in the largest sense possible.
But either way you have just created the "you're gonna die some time eventually, so I may as well kill you now" justice.
So Hitler didn't do anything wrong because all the people he tormented would just die later anyway.
Perry, you have an exrememly perverted sense of justice. You are definately made in gods image.
You shall not covet your neighbor's ass!
