Convince me

by Liza 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

BR25

Hey I havent been going to the hall for about 6 years and I feel the same way you do, but I would find out for myself. I still believe in what the jw's believe.
people on here try to make valid arguments for example. The watchtower comes from something bad, but the they support holidays. That is very hypocritical and you know. When people tell you to the read the stories on here read them all, some are very stupid. Like all the easter conversations. How more pagean can you get. These are the same people who let the kids go trick or treating, because it is for the kids. Geese while dont you just throw the bible on the ground.
people on here also give alot of examples of jws on here, but just remember that there are bad people in every religion including jws so dont take these examples to heart.
The 3 main arguments on here are birthdays, blood, and holidays and I am sure you know why we dont do these things. Remember god offers you everlasting life, this life maybe offers 75. When listening to peoples opinions on the things remember they are just man made opinions, not scriptually or historically backed.
My info to you is ask yourself how your life has changed since you left and that should give you the answer.
agapa37

Actaully I think I mistyped it, I meant to say Bible verses, as in Bible verses that deviate a lot from the NWT.

So does Yaweh not appear in the original Bible? How come in does in some non NWT versions in the Online Parrallel Bible? The name of God was taken out and replaced by the title LORD because of a superstitous idea that it was wrong to say Gods name aloud.
AuldSoul

BR25: The watchtower comes from something bad, but the they support holidays. That is very hypocritical and you know.
Um, I didn't see this argument ... I did see this argument: The WTS claims to come from something good (God) but it actually comes from something bad (false prophets and heavy influence of Masonic traditions). Holidays, on the other hand, don't pretend to have good origins.
I think you are very confused about what the people on this board believe.
BR25: The 3 main arguments on here are birthdays, blood, and holidays and I am sure you know why we dont do these things.
My three main arguments didn't touch on any of these topics. But, since you brought it up, why don't you celebrate birthdays? I seriously doubt you know why you don't.
Mad

Liza wrote:"However I also have my own doubts:

-I do not think that humans have been here a mere 6,000 years. I think for example that Noah's flood may have happened 10-18,000 years ago and have triggered the ice age.
Mad writes: That IS the problem, Liza- all want to believe what they WANT to believe. Are the dates that far in the past of any REAL importance- when all we can do is GUESS?
-During a convention when I was about eight years old, I heard about a brother whose mother was sick in the hospital. He and his wife prayed to Jehovah God, and later on his mother got better. Is this a miracle? If so then the congregation has stated before that miracles would no longer happen and any such "miracles" are works of demons and Satan to misguide people from the truth. But Jehovah may have just given his mother the strength to get better.
Mad writes: Again, does man's opinion really matter?

-I think that, just the way that children can make up wild fantasies and superstions, pagan cults and belifs may not have been entirely inspired by satan. Though they may have been perpetuated by satan to stray the practitioners from the truth. Rather such beliefs were formed by people searching for explanations and spirituality.
Mad writes: True! Your point??????

-Sometimes my faith in a creation is sometimes blurred when I see the similarities between monkeys and humans. For one I may be a girl but I am also quite hairy. My cousin has a pet monkey and when I went to visit him I almost viewed the monkey as not just looking but behaving very human like.
Mad writes: I'm convinced! Ever occur to you that a designer's "style" will be seen in all his/her creations? See any monkeys with human intelligence? Hmmmmm! There are, on the other hand, many humans with the intelligence of monkeys....maybe you HAVE something there!

-The greek words may be misinterpreted or "lost in translation"
Mad writes: Not as lost as you may fear! Maybe with some minor meanings- but the major meanings are easy to understand to Greek Scholars!

-I think that my secular experiences by themselves have made me a better person. And that suffering can indeed improve some and thier outlook in life. Though many people have been reforned by becoming Jehovah's Witnesses, so have people in mainstream churches and even spiritual organizations like Kabbalah.
Mad writes: We all learn from WHATEVER we go thru, but the Kabbalah? Just QUESTION their beliefs- and the endless holes will appear!

-If I keep fearing Jehovah all the time, I don't think I will be happy. I have been told that Satan wants us to see God as a totalitarian dictator, but isn't the congregation's constant injection of fear just this?
Mad writes: The "Fear of Jehovah" the Bible says- is NOT the "Friday the 13th" Movie Fear of Horrified Dread, Liza- but the same loving fear you have of hurting and/or discouraging your mother!
-The congregation says that homosexuality is unatural. But then why do animals do it too? But then again animals don't always mate for life either.
Mad writes: Unnatural desires flourish everywhere! The design of the different bodies- and the result of their unions reveals what is truly "natural"!

-I have heard rumors about a "cult of Mithras". That the story of Jesus was inspired by a greek sun god named Mirthras who also raised the dead, healed the sick, and "walked on water" like the sun, and was "the light of the world". But some say that it was many years after Jesus and was inspired by Jesus instead of the other way around. The Jehovah's Witness publication of "Mankind's search for God" says that "Why would people risk their lives and stand firm against something false?" in response to this speculation.
Mad writes: Met any Mithranites lately?

-What defines a marriage? Isn't a commited relationship enough? Doesn't legally married mean getting a marraige licesce from of all organizations...the GOVERNEMENT?
Mad writes: The bond & the commitment defines a marriage- the license is merely a public statement- feared only by those that have no good intentions- or fearing their MATE may have none!

-Why can't I love Jehovah my own way? I want to become a psycology researcher\fiction writer\illustrator when I grow odler and get out of college. But I think my work will promote love toward God and his wisdom.
Mad writes: No reason you CAN'T...unless you need others to think FOR you!
Agape,
the Mad Brother!
Arthur
Liza:
Let me ask you a very simple question:
Are true Christians obligated to be under law?
Let me give you a little homework assignment. This may sound like a lot of effort, but effort is required if you truly wish to resolve certain issues on your own. I am sure that if you do this digging; you will discover some very interesting facts that you hadn't considered yet. Here are 7 steps that you can do to reevaluate your relationship with God and His son Jesus Christ.
1. Read the book of Romans and Galatians very carefully, and mediate on what the apostle Paul was saying.
2. Next, approach one of the congregation elders and ask him if Jehovah's Witnesses are allowed to make decisions about matters of employment and medical treatments based solely on the Scriptures.
3. When he starts to discuss the "Faithful Slave Class",ask him who makes up this "Slave Class".
4. After he answers you, ask him if it is the entire slave class that decides what type of employment is acceptable for Christians. Also, ask him who specifically decides the current blood policy for JWs.
5. Go to the Watchtower Library CD-ROM or bound volumes, and look up the terms: rape, organ transplants, blood, and employment. Look up every article that is listed. Carefully examine the detailed policies and policy changes that have occurred over the years.
6. Next, in the Watchtower Library CD-ROM or bound volumes, look up the word Talmud. (Insight books have no listing). Read everything you can on the subject of Talmud, and see if you see any parallels with the Watchtower policies.
7. Go back and prayerfully read the entire books of Romans and Galatians again.
Hellrider

Liza:
-So what if C.T Russel was a freemason and dabbled in the occult? Studying the bible may have made him change his ways.
Russell was never a freemason. He may have "dabbled in the occult", I don`t care, but IF he did, then YOU should care. The occult is the same as demonizm and satanism, within your beliefs. And if the founder of your religion (because that is what Russell was !!) "dabbled in the occult", I would be very concerned, as it is your religions standards (and his) to NOT do this.
Jehovah's Witnessses used to use the cross as a symbol, and celebrate holidays and birthdays. But upon discovering that holidays and birthdays originated as pagan celebrations to honor certain false dieties have stopped.
What is "pagan"? All traditions are originally "pagan", including wedding rings. But Jehovahs Witnesses use wedding rings, don`t they? But: Where in the Bible does it say to "abstain from all things pagan"? And if it says so, anywhere, what did the jews and early christians consider pagan? The fact is, that the early christians used SYMBOLS in their worship, including both the cross, the fish and the lamb. The cross is as old as christianity itself. The "pole" which you believe that Christ was killed on, is no less pagan than the cross. The word "stavros" used in the greek text, doesn not just mean "pole", it also means "cross", in all its various shapes. The Jehovahs Witnesses will tell you that this is untrue, that the christians of the 1st century didn`t use symbols in thier worship, and that the cross is a later invention. They are wrong, and all historians in the world will tell you so, if you ask them. The majority of Watchtower-doctrine is based on fasifications of history.
The cross is also a pagan derived symbol, and so is the "Holy" Trinity which can be traced from ancient Egyptian and Chinese cults
The same goes for the Trinity, btw. It is as old as christianity itself. The Watchtower will tell you that it didn`t appear until the great "apostasy" of the 4th century. They are wrong, lying, or both. It is a historical fact that the Trinity, although not stated as explicitly as in the declaration of the Church meeting in Nicea in 325, existed in the 2n century. And in the 1st, jesus Christ was also worshipped as GOD! Like it or not.
If people are going to go to heaven and hell when they die, how come even mainstream church bibles always speak of a ressurection too?
Because they have studied the Bible thoroughly, and arrived at this conclusion. The "going to heaven "-part is clearly a part of the Bible, as the "preliminary" ressurection (the immortality of the soul, resting in heaven, awaiting the final judgement and earthly ressurection). This can be clearly found in particular in Pauls letter. The catholic and protestant church has real theologians...the Watchtower has not.
-Jehovah's Witnesses always quote the Bible to back of their belifs.
Misquote, yes.
The congregation is supposed to be based off the the pre-Catholic Christians.
Well, it isn`t. You`d have to falsify early church history beyond recognition for that to be the case. In fact, this is the biggest lie of them all, promoted by the Watchtower.
Much of Jehovah's morals can have secular benifits, for they are his wisdom. For example, it has been discovered that condoms aren't very effective when it comes to AIDS.
You don`t have to be a JW to abstain from sex. Anyone can do that.
Even my Catholic relatives recognize that the last days are comming, since a day for God can be a very long time for humans, it may be centuries till the New System comes. The signs are there, the feet of clay and iron that is the last empire. That last empire being the US, and Republicans being iron and Democrats being clay. The blashpemous unity of church and state being represented by the whore that rides the wild beast. And a grea tribulation that may come, and think that maybe the Bush Administration may have something to do with it. Also that in 1914 WWI started, and an event in the middle east there was triggered whose effects still occur today with the constant chaos of the middle east.
This is some of the worst BS I have ever heard. I`m sorry, but you seem to gullible to be rescued from the Witnesses. Good luck with your baptism.
BR25

First of all I am new on here and I was just brousing through alot of the comments that is why I said that alot of the stuff about holidays, birthdays, and so forth. I dont celebrate holidays mainly because of how they origined and who they originated from. Everybody digs up info on jw's and everyone supports, but as soon as someone sticks up for the jws on something that it is a good argument it gets shot down. I guess I can understand why people celebrate the holidays in general, because they think it is because of something good, and alot of people mean good by it, but if you dont celebrate and you have good reasons why (origins, customs, and so forth) it should be ok. Bye the way we do have a memorial for jesus we just dont celebrate easter. No biggy!!
Alot of people on here do got good opinions, but so do some of the jw backers on here, but every time a jw says something and backs it up all anyone wants to do is poke fun.
I can pick apart other religions and their beliefs just as easy as other people do with jws. I guess athiests is the way to go.(sarcasm).
Liza

Okay sounds like a good point, as for you Arthur, I'll do it, sounds lengthy but this task on itself will be lengthy, and wherever I land, I hope Yaweh will spare me and understand if I dive into the wrong path.

But here is something I found, thanks to the JW facts website:

Here is from: http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/15-22.htm

NASB: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive
GWT: As everyone dies because of Adam, so also everyone will be made alive because of Christ.
BBE: For as in Adam death comes to all, so in Christ will all come back to life.

NWT has it as:

For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.

How did die become dying? Then again this may not mean anything other than "scratching the surface".

But as for holidays I still won't go thorugh the trouble of praising pagan deities.
And neither have I made my final decision.

The blood thing, for me is not important, there are blood substitutes available.

Now, the whole Lord thing I might take. I became a tad suspicious of this long ago because in the comminity college I attend there are a lot of "nondenominational Christians" asking people to study the bible with them. The New Testament they had used "Lord".

However I still haven't seen something truely damming.

Now though I have seen, even in NWT something about the other sheep being in heaven. However, what about the concept of the soul? I heard it's a pagan idea that the soul is separate from the body. The word used in the scriptures the congregation claims is "psyche" which means "breath" or "life"?
Fred E Hathaway

Right. You're thinking of Scriptures like Genesis 2:7; and Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; and Ezekiel 18:4, 20.
Mad

Hellrider (aptly named) wrote:"
What is "pagan"? All traditions are originally "pagan", including wedding rings. But Jehovahs Witnesses use wedding rings, don`t they? But: Where in the Bible does it say to "abstain from all things pagan"? And if it says so, anywhere, what did the jews and early christians consider pagan? The fact is, that the early christians used SYMBOLS in their worship, including both the cross, the fish and the lamb. The cross is as old as christianity itself. The "pole" which you believe that Christ was killed on, is no less pagan than the cross. The word "stavros" used in the greek text, doesn not just mean "pole", it also means "cross", in all its various shapes. The Jehovahs Witnesses will tell you that this is untrue, that the christians of the 1st century didn`t use symbols in thier worship, and that the cross is a later invention. They are wrong, and all historians in the world will tell you so, if you ask them. The majority of Watchtower-doctrine is based on fasifications of history.
Mad writes: O Wise HellRider- your ignorant words betray you! You know better- if you really know what "stauros" means, and if you've done ANY research on your OWN about the cross in religion! If she listens to you- she shouldn't bother thinking.
The cross is also a pagan derived symbol, and so is the "Holy" Trinity which can be traced from ancient Egyptian and Chinese cults
The same goes for the Trinity, btw. It is as old as christianity itself. The Watchtower will tell you that it didn`t appear until the great "apostasy" of the 4th century. They are wrong, lying, or both. It is a historical fact that the Trinity, although not stated as explicitly as in the declaration of the Church meeting in Nicea in 325, existed in the 2n century. And in the 1st, jesus Christ was also worshipped as GOD! Like it or not.
Mad writes: LOLOLOLO! 300 years after Christ by pompus clergy- the Nicean Creed! Get a life, man! Officiated by the corrupt 'Christian' Pretender Constantine! It's hard to believe anyone is still gullable enough to believe that!
If people are going to go to heaven and hell w
hen they die, how come even mainstream church bibles always speak of a ressurection too?
Because they have studied the Bible thoroughly, and arrived at this conclusion. The "going to heaven "-part is clearly a part of the Bible, as the "preliminary" ressurection (the immortality of the soul, resting in heaven, awaiting the final judgement and earthly ressurection). This can be clearly found in particular in Pauls letter. The catholic and protestant church has real theologians...the Watchtower has not.
Mad writes:"Real Theologians" that promulgate the First Lie (Satan) to Eve- You Will NOT Die! :"Real Theologians" that make Christ a liar, saying the dead have never died at all- but have always been resurrected & judged- sent to Heaven, Hellfire, Purgatory or Limbo! Your spouting almost makes me wish in Hellfire- for decievers like you.
-Jehovah's Witnesses always quote the Bible to back of their belifs.
Misquote, yes.
Mad writes: I'm convinced! Such POWERFUL facts! Bwahahaha
The congregation is supposed to be based off the the pre-Catholic Christians.
Well, it isn`t. You`d have to falsify early church history beyond recognition for that to be the case. In fact, this is the biggest lie of them all, promoted by the Watchtower.
Mad writes: He MUST be right; Christ wore a Pointy Hat, his Apostles were really called Reverends, and were paid to preach in fancy buildings! HOW COULD I HAVE BEEN SO WRONG????
Much of Jehovah's morals can have secular benifits, for they are his wisdom. For example, it has been discovered that condoms aren't very effective when it comes to AIDS.
You don`t have to be a JW to abstain from sex. Anyone can do that.
Mad writes: Maybe THAT'S your problem...
Even my Catholic relatives recognize that the last days are comming, since a day for God can be a very long time for humans, it may be centuries till the New System comes. The signs are there, the feet of clay and iron that is the last empire. That last empire being the US, and Republicans being iron and Democrats being clay. The blashpemous unity of church and state being represented by the whore that rides the wild beast. And a grea tribulation that may come, and think that maybe the Bush Administration may have something to do with it. Also that in 1914 WWI started, and an event in the middle east there was triggered whose effects still occur today with the constant chaos of the middle east.
This is some of the worst BS I have ever heard. I`m sorry, but you seem to gullible to be rescued from the Witnesses. Good luck with your baptism.
Mad writes: Pearls before swine...

Convince me

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